"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[SmoothBore]

I suppose that my "philosophy" leans heavily on, what modern industry calls "best practices".

Quite often, an item that could be machined and assembled, ... or welded and fabricated from standard "dimensional" stock, ... can be improved upon, by forging it from one continuous billet.

I'm a pragmatist, rather than an esthetic, ... so I'm always going to choose whichever process yields the best quality, for the end result.

I like to think the "old timers" had a similar "philosophy", ... and that's how modern processes evolved.

.

[beth]

well i dont know if anyone is still reading but as some may know am trying and failing and trying and failing more often than i can tell you to do this forge welding, was going to tidy the workshop today for the good effect it may have on the psyche!! but i didnt, instead kept on and on trying, i just dont know whats going on now, maybe i was in the wrong mood. the fire is deep, clean hardly any blast, sometimes it seems to get the work to the right heat, sometimes, not, but either way it gobbles fuel which is confusing. i have tried seemingly endless loops trying to weld where the end touches back on intself, one in ten i recko actually welds in part, the rest look like they are but pull apart under scrutiny, or not even under scrutiny... am so frustrated with this, it seems ot be different each time i do it, but does seem slightly better if i use the flux... (so un british.... ) so i tried tack welding a few pieces togerther when i was running out of time today, i think they part welded, but im not sure if i have just spread and flattened the tacks.. have a look if you can be bothered!!






very frustrated with lack of progress, i will put it back in the fire next week when i am free again... i think its burned too.. cannot seem to get the balance of heat right - this should be easy i realise that... if i could just get it under my belt it would free me up so much.

[bigfootnampa]

It looks to me as if they were NOT hot enough... don't fear the flux, it is your friend. It is NOT easy! Mark Aspery teaches that you ought to make 1,000 forge weld attempts to become proficient. He says that after 3 or 4 hundred you will find them starting to stick. I consider Mark to be one of the most gifted smithing teachers... he has a wonderful way of teaching basic principles that in the end takes you far beyond basic skills! You do not need a huge fire to make small forge welds but it must concentrate heat on the weld area. Per Mark Aspery you CAN weld without flux and you CAN weld without a brush but using either increases your odds of success and using both increases those odds even more. Is it possible that your weld areas cooled a bit before you got to work on them... even a few seconds here can be fatal. Simplify your practice... make one piece weld to another before trying a multi-surfaced weld. You must walk before you fly! Pay strict attention... be watching your weld like a hawk as it nears welding temp and have tongs already in hand and positioned. Swoop like a falcon and tap that weld together!

[beth]

thankyou big foot - your advice is good. ihave not done three or four hundred, maybe 70! and i know also that one piece to another is the way to go - but i wondered randomly (desperately?) if multiple might be easier, and i couldnt see why it would be harder.... i dont think im getting it hot enough, but if i do, half of it burns.. i cant seem to find the middle ground even though im making tiny weeny adsjustments to the air.... you have encouraged me that it could take 400 welds. at least im not just being a loser! (maybe not anyway!)

[John B]

Hi Beth, Where do you want to start,

What diameter bar were you using?

Not nearly hot enough,

You are apparently using round bars which are not ideal for transmitting heat to the centre of the bundle,

You will need to soak it so the heat penetrates the bundle,

Just tacking the lot together does not help welding, only handling, but it is OK to start it this way for practicing, the weld should blend in anyway if you do it correctly (Mig is better than stick) .

If you can wait we can sort it on the toolmaking course, if not try this

Use some square bar, (or square your round), take one length of a comfortable length to hold, this will be your centre, and eliminate the need for using tongs as you will have enough to concentrate on without having to fumble to get it out of the fire.

Take another piece and form a U and place the first bar within the U, forge this to a close fit to the first bar, this will start to look like a reverse toasting fork.

Place the two pieces together and than tack the outer to the inner at the base of the now square U. This will give you something solid to work with.

Now place it in the fire and slowly bring to a welding heat (use your flux if you think it is going to help),

But try it without first as you can't' see what is happening on the material surface if you use flux, (I know you use welding type glasses, but you should be able to see when the surfaces are runny and ready to weld even in coke)

Keep on turning the workpiece like a rotisserie in the fire as you slowly bring it up to the welding heat, letting the heat soak all the way through the pieces.

When you you have got it to heat (a spark or two may be indicative and probably in your case desirable as an indicator of heat reached) Pull it out of the fire and get it on the anvil as quick as possible, don't dither, tap the tack welded end, then moving towards you, lightly tap the next bit, and then repeat in a third place.

Pop it back into the fire and raise the bundle back up to welding heat, and repeat the forging process, you should be able to use heavier blows now to consolidate the weld, redo if necessary, but keep slowly rotating in the fire letting the heat soak through

You can then think about adding another U to the bundle to give you the five branch weld you are trying to achieve.

What you are lacking is confidence, just get it hot (enough) and hit it, gently first, then harder. It would be better to burn a couple of attempts and get them to stick, rather than being too tentative and not reach a welding heat in the first place.

Good luck with the next practice session.

[beth]

thanks john - i know youve been through this a thousand times with me...
firstly it was 4 or 5 mm round, which yes i can square i can see that would be better (although arent those domed scarves scarfs?? round in profile to squirt flux or dirt out or something?)
im pretty sure the heat soaks the bundle, it was in for ages and i turned it like you say. i did not get sparks doing that one, but i often (usualy) wait for that and either it still doesnt weld, or it is mishapen and burned....

i will try the u shaped thing yes that makes sense, and try again With Sparks. and as for confidence i know you think i dont have any but i sometimes have huge bursts of it ( which makes me keep trying!) its just it is misplaced in this instance as it aint working..! i am fast moving, (like a hawk was it??!) i lightly tap, i flux or i dont flux, i try sparking and not... i may well be getting you to show me again in october john. i think my prob is the correct heat beasue even with the glasses i find it really hard to see and look at, and by the time its sparking ive often burned it. i wil keep trying till then. as well, i only tack welded those becasue someone had mentioned it earlier as a way of holding the pieces together, i know it wont help the weld, just made it easier to attempt. for that size piece how long should i ( i know its as long as a piece of string - but guesstimate) expect to get this to welding temp - im keeping the blast as low as poss, but it takes forever (sometimes!) to heat it high enough. nothing is consistent
thanks for your help..

[John B]

thanks john - i know youve been through this a thousand times with me...
firstly it was 4 or 5 mm round, which yes i can square i can see that would be better (although arent those domed scarves scarfs?? round in profile to squirt flux or dirt out or something?)
im pretty sure the heat soaks the bundle, it was in for ages and i turned it like you say. i did not get sparks doing that one, but i often (usualy) wait for that and either it still doesnt weld, or it is mishapen and burned....

i will try the u shaped thing yes that makes sense, and try again With Sparks. and as for confidence i know you think i dont have any but i sometimes have huge bursts of it ( which makes me keep trying!) its just it is misplaced in this instance as it aint working..! i am fast moving, (like a hawk was it??!) i lightly tap, i flux or i dont flux, i try sparking and not... i may well be getting you to show me again in october john. i think my prob is the correct heat beasue even with the glasses i find it really hard to see and look at, and by the time its sparking ive often burned it. i wil keep trying till then. as well, i only tack welded those becasue someone had mentioned it earlier as a way of holding the pieces together, i know it wont help the weld, just made it easier to attempt. for that size piece how long should i ( i know its as long as a piece of string - but guesstimate) expect to get this to welding temp - im keeping the blast as low as poss, but it takes forever (sometimes!) to heat it high enough. nothing is consistent
thanks for your help..

If you are only using 4 or 5 mm, then you should be melting them in a few minutes if your fire is right and you are using the forging coke.

Domed scarfs are fine, but scarfs are jumped up and larger than basic size to allow for weld 'n' blend, two or more round bars will just become very thinned down in relation to the bits sprouting out of it

Lowest possible blast may be too low, and yet you say you are using loads of fuel. It doesn't make sense somehow.

I know you have confidence, but not yet in this particular skill area.

I would suggest poking a couple of bits of 12mm square bar into the fire and see if you can joggle or rub them together and get them to start to stick together in the fire, then pull them out as a united piece and tap them together and see what happens.

Don't loose heart, we will get you there.

[bigfootnampa]

I don't want to step on John's toes as he is clearly better qualified than I but I do agree that there is something wrong if it is taking a long time to get those small bars to welding heat. That suggests a possible fire management problem and in any case taking too long to get to heat creates excessive scale that makes everything harder. In my coal forge when I have a good welding fire going rods of that size would heat from cold in a minute or less to welding temps. Already black hot they'd burn in about 6 to 10 seconds.

[jake pogrebinsky]

OK,i've very carefully read everything above,and am also puzzled.Can't find anything off in either with what you,Beth,are doing,or any of the sound advice.
The time factor seems suspect to me as well as to you guys here.And one thing that can derive from that may be the change in the fire underneath.
One thing that you may try,Beth:Make yourself a simple,right-angle poker,nice and long so your hand's not too uncomfortable,with an angled part about 6-8" long.Sharpen the end to a fairly sharp point.It'll serve two important functions:
1.You feel with it UNDERNEATH,(and around ) your work as it's heating.The purpose is to detect a hollow spot in the fire,and fill it from the sides with already actively burning fuel.
2.By heating the point hot(it kinda gets that way as you rummage inside your fire),you start TESTING with it.Right at the face of your scarf,or close around.Ideally,it will stick so hard as to be almost able to lift the work out by that bond.By constantly testing,you may even keep on doing that using a test-piece,see where the welding range starts,continues,and possibly ends,too(overheating,oxidising atmosphere,some other evil).

Unfortunately,that's all that i can think of,right now.But i'll keep on trying to muddle through it.

About flux:It's also yet another testing medium.You can use it to test the atmosphere in your fire,not even necessarily on your work itself.
Flux a disposable test-chunk,and heat it next to your work,or as a separate trial run.

If it's melting,and at welding heat gets active,squiggly and running little bubbles,if the surface of it is shiny,you have the correct,Reducing Atmosphere.

If at high heat it's molten surface appears dry,bluish-greyish,spotty,and there's no gloss or play at the surface(molten butter-like),that means that somehow you have a destructive to welding Oxydising Atmosphere,for whatever reason.
That is one of the most valuable sides to using the flux(borax or boric acid).

Beth,when something makes itself tough to get,it only means that you'll really incorporate the lesson deeper than otherwise.The bigger the lump-the sweeter the lesson,trust this old masochist!:)

[beth]

thankyou fellers i will try both joggling the 12mm square, and the Poker in Residence as tester.. thanks for trying to help me work it out. i think there is something wrong with the fire. like i said it races through fuel, much faster than if i was working normally where i do the Dirty Habit of blasting nearly full air when im in the fire, and letting it off when at anvil ( i habit i am trying to correct after IFI advice ) (which i would have thought would use it faster??) when i try to weld i have a deep fire it is hot but i have been using little blast, and it caves in regualrly. SO maybe i have gaps under the work coming too often?? i will try bit more blast again, watch for gaps forming and let it spark a little. and expect it to heat a lot quicker. it does not look blueish grey, but i never really see this molten thing, or i think i do but its not OBVIOUS to my eyes anyway.. sometimes its so hot by the fire that my necklaces burn my neck! and yet it does not seem to heat the metal. now, jake, i am the village idiot - cant imagine why im making it so complex.... and what you say about the sweeter the lesson, your truly right, nowt that comes easy is up to much is it?? and thanks john - i will not loose heart, even if i loose my patience sometimes :)

[John B]

I don't want to step on John's toes as he is clearly better qualified than I but I do agree that there is something wrong if it is taking a long time to get those small bars to welding heat. That suggests a possible fire management problem and in any case taking too long to get to heat creates excessive scale that makes everything harder. In my coal forge when I have a good welding fire going rods of that size would heat from cold in a minute or less to welding temps. Already black hot they'd burn in about 6 to 10 seconds.

Thanks Bigfoot please don't assume I am better qualified than yourself or anyone else on the site, we can all bring something to the debate, and I agree with you on the fire management problem.

And Beth, if you are using coke in a side blast forge, and the fire is collapsing then you are burning out the centre, usually indicative of using too much blast, this may be a result of closing down and then bringing back the blast as you go back into the next heat,

One thing we show the guys on the taster days are the effects of the forging coke (as opposed to coked coal) on a piece, specifically when heating a relatively thick piece in the proximity of a thin piece, is to rake the density of the amount of coke around the thin section even to the extent of exposing it fully to air, whilst pileing and packing the hot coke around the thicker section to ensure the selected piece benefits from the heat, whilst not overheating (burning) the thinner section.

Also, as we use the side blasts and put the metal in from the side for a longer heat than putting in the metal from the front, the cokes tend to get pushed away from the side you are working, altering the hot spot in the heart of the fire.

Each hearth tends to have their own idiosyncrasies and you need to know these to work them effectively, without using yours specifically it is always going to be difficult to tie down specifics, maybe its time to go right back to basics and start from scratch to see what is not going right,

Forge welding is a funny old thing, and there are times you see stuff done that goes against all the principles you think you know about it, but thats part of the wonder of it.

If you don't get it before the next course, I'll try to get you sorted then, and if that doesn't work a visit to your facility is called for, maybe after Lu's 100th birthday do?

[beth]

john that would be brilliant!!! (you would be horrified... all my bad pracitce would be revealed) we can disscuss on the course if im still struggling... not sure whenLu's birthdya is? would love to meet this man..
as for the cavities forming, its even more confusing, becasue the way i normally work (yes its side blast) (before more recently taking advice about too much blast) inthe way of closing down and opening the blast every few mins as i work does not produce any collapsing, but ONLY when i try to keep this hot low blast Reducing atmosphere that is talked of.... i think a back to basics approach would be great - ive never really had any of that so it makes sense entirely, and with other things ive learned, even when knowledge is much more complete it sometimes really helps to do this and its often quite surprising what you learn the second third fourth time through 'the basics' over the years. sometimes you see different things. like you so beautifully put it john, thats the wonder of it. i dont want to take away any focus/time from the actual title of the course though which is tools! should i just do one of your introduction things and not take such a random approach? i do want to make the bum tool though.... have you got a full course for the tools or just a few of us? i know youve a very organic attitude towards the nature of what gets taught/learned but i put myself totally in your hands as to what you have time/headspace/patience for, am more than happy to learn ANYTHING on offer that weekend, and certainly dont expect the weekend tailored to my personal needs :rolleyes:

[John B]

Hi Beth,
October 24th is Lu's birthday,

At the moment there are Nine confirmed, one provisional, so far, a couple of places left, and I am going to try to get another instructor involved so we can have better coverage.

Don't forget to note your hardie hole size for your bum tool to fit (thats the English version, though if it don't turn out right it may be the US version)

[Jura T]

Great to see this thread alive and kicking!

Beth, don't stop trying. I can feel your frustration as trying to achieve something by trial and error sometimes takes a lot of time. It is great that John has promised to walk you through the welding during the course. I hope that we had courses on ornamental ironwork in Finland, but we don't. John, any chance for a course on reproducing those gothic pieces?

This morning I had some time to play with the gothic piece once again. Below is a photo of what I managed to do. It is far from perfect. The shapes aren't flowing as they should and in same places I left the material too thick. However, I didn't pay too much attention to those as the purpose was to practice forge welding. This time I'm quite happy with that part. All the welds seem to be fairly good.

As you can see there are some cracks on some parts. They showed up right when I started to bend the scrolls. I think that they are caused by heating the parts too high too many times...

[bigfootnampa]

Jura I have usually seen those type cracks when I have been working with antique wrought iron. Is it possible that you used a very old piece of scrap for this? I find that I also have more trouble getting a smooth flow with the lines when using the old wrought iron too. It seems to have stiff spots and areas that resist being worked and want to crack like that or broom on the ends etcetera.

[Jura T]

Jura I have usually seen those type cracks when I have been working with antique wrought iron. Is it possible that you used a very old piece of scrap for this?

No, it is modern recycled steel (Fe37/S235).

[jake pogrebinsky]

Excellent attempt,Jura,right on!
Though the imperfections will always be there for us,striving for the technical excellence,it's still a great object.
It could be overheating,not sure from photos,but practice with your usual material will rid you of all these small nuissances in short order.
The slight unfairnass of curves i think has to do with the different thickness at transitions,particularly covered in that priceless essay of John's on Sequensuality of it all.The pre-forming to control the inevitable deformations that happen with welds,in particular(I need to print that out,and hang it where i can keep re-reading it,there's so much there that is not immediately obvious).
But,again,fantastic element,Jura,good on ya,it's a joy to see something that neat!

[John B]

Hi Jura, I think you have done a good job there with the welds, and the scrolls, and you just need to pay attention to details for the smooth flowing appearance you are looking for, and I would tend to agree with you about the cracks in the material. Probably too hot too often, no evidence of burning, but just below that point I would think.

I will try to put some other points forward too that may be relevant.

What section of material are you using? It looks to be a squarish section as opposed to a flat rectangular section.

The material used in the samples were from a high status building, and as such I would expect the wrought iron used was of the highest grade wrought that was available.

Strikers were available and no doubt used by the smith who produced these items, that would have included flattering the surfaces to blend them in as opposed to just relying on hammer control, on the face of that statement there would not appear to be much difference in the end result, but in practice, you get a smoother transition using the flatter.

The irregularity of your curves is probably down to a couple of reasons

Firstly you don't have the smooth flow taper in the piece
This means you are never going to get that smooth flow appearanc from afar, one side/edge may look correct, but the other will appear lumpy.

You need a good heat throughout the piece when manipulating it to the final position (basic rule of where it is hottest it will bend easiest, combined with given an even heat, the thin parts will bend before or more easily than the thicker parts.

I would also speculate that you did not draw (as on a steel plate) out a working pattern that you could check your workpiece against and adjust as you go.

I would also suspect that the originals (because of the quantities involved) were made to scrolling jigs.

Here are some of the relevant pics, one to show the flow on the scrolls,



and these other two to try to show the materials' section, the pierced end pic was a bit deceptive and may have thrown you because that material section appeared square'ish', and that is because it has been taper forged down to give the required fitting for the rosette and rivet to bring into alignment with the whole element. The whole is mainly flat section scrollwork



I hope this helps to get it together, I think you are doing great so far and will get there with a bit more practice, and harsh self criticism until you are satisfied with the outcome.

It isn't easy trying to get mild steel to perform like wrought iron, they are after all two entirely different matarials and have their own characteristics and peculiarities. (But it's fun trying to get the same appearance.)

[Jura T]

I would tend to agree with you about the cracks in the material. Probably too hot too often, no evidence of burning, but just below that point I would think.

Getting too hot too often was the only reason I came up with. It is quite frustrating as I was paying special attention to only heat the welded area to welding heat. I took 2-3 welding heats per welding, just to make sure that I got good welds and to take all the seams out. I guess I could shoot for 1-2 welding heats.

What section of material are you using? It looks to be a squarish section as opposed to a flat rectangular section.

I guess it is hard too see from the photo but it is rectangular. I'm starting with 8mmx12mm and then take it down to about 6mmx12mm at the thicker parts (I also have forged a taper at the pierced end). Following your suggestion in leaving more material for welding definitely helped a lot.

I'm not too worried about shapes/flow as I concentration more on the welding part. Especially, after seeing the cracks I only made the shapes close enough. I think I'll try the flatter to smooth the transitions next time.

I would also suspect that the originals (because of the quantities involved) were made to scrolling jigs.

I have also thought about using jigs. That way it would probably be easier to get lines right around the welded branches as the material is thicker there.

It isn't easy trying to get mild steel to perform like wrought iron, they are after all two entirely different matarials and have their own characteristics and peculiarities. (But it's fun trying to get the same appearance.)

It would nice to make the same piece out of wrought iron just for comparison.

Thanks again John!

[beth]

how cool! jura thats great - it just looks so much FUN to make, so satisfying.. all this stuff seems far away from my reach at present!! but its lovely to watch what youre doing and read the following disscussion/wisdom. its the thought of being able to weld AND shape at the same time, that just seems like a totally perfect scenario to me!! john, when you say that the wrought is so different in its charachter etc, when using mild steel, what do you think are the main differences we should expect in the finished work? what exactly do we lose and do we gain anything using mild steel for this kind of thing?
jura - thanks for your encouragement! and yes i am extremely lucky to have john (sometimes refered to as the oracle on this thread ) who has not run out of patience yet, and who seems wiling to actually come and help me should this issue start to affect my mental health... :)

[John B]

Hi Beth, Wasn't the Oracle Johnnie Vegas? (Better looking and slimmer than me) and the font of all knowledge , I am just a mere drip. (in both senses of the word)

Let's not get carried away here, just keep it simple, after all I've told you before I failed my application for the village idiots job, and so I like to keep it very simple.

Don't even think about welding and shaping at the same time. concentrate on the priority, weld preparation, weld, consolidate weld, then you can think about shaping the weld.

Wrought forges differently to steel

As to the differences I would expect in the finished work. IMHO

From an external view, very little to the untrained eye, (unless you have metallurgical callibrated eyeballs) there are however subtle nuances to the finished scroll ends due to the materials construction, ie you are unlikley to see sharp pointy ends on wrought iron items, these 'wrought iron style' (for want of a better description) can however be duplicated in steel.

Wrought however is apparently much easier to forge weld, but that is down to the individual and their capabilities
In practice, once mastered, steel is easy enough to forge weld with a few exceptions, with some of the so called mild steel, for some reason extremely difficult or apparently impossible to achieve a weld with even for the more experienced 'smiths

The other difference which is sometimes made a lot of is the apparent resistance of rusting where wrought is considered to be much more resistant.
In practice, steel can be treated and preserved and will last for many years without major problems, and any minor problems should be attended to immediately to preserve the integrity of the material.

Most of the wrought iron items that were made and installed in prestigious situations were subject to a maintenence schedule with regular maintenence being carried out on them, which is one of the reasons why there are so many well preserved wrought iron bits around for us to examine today.

It is only from the mid to latter parts of the 20th century where this maintenence regime seems to have faltered due to social, political and mainly economic pressures that we have lost a lot of our forged heritage ironwork.

If any metalwork is looked after prepared, treated, and maintained correctly, it will virtually last for centuries.

As to what do we lose or gain, basically if you are buying wrought Iron as opposed to Pure Iron or steel, lose a shed load of money, and possibly gain a load of frustration (as as far as I have experienced, and having conversed with people who have gone the wrought iron way), due to the consistency and quality of the product purchased or sourced.

If you are using it as a hobby then it's not so much of a problem, but if you are trying to make a living using wrought you have to know what you are doing with it, and even then with the material available I would go with Pure Iron rather than wrought for a similar forging experience and acceptable specification.

For a metalworker/blacksmith the steel is, I find, a more versatile option to use as a basic material, and a lot easier to source in sections I can economically use.

You pays your money and make your choice, others may have different opinions and experiences, these are mine and I can quantify them.

Whatever you do, have fun and enjoy,

[beth]

thanks john , very interesting - and sounds like we can get the look with the cheaper steel option, which is mainly as a messer arounder, what is important to me at the moment. it is after all, still a raw material. dont panic - i am not at all expecting to be able to shape and weld RIGHT NOW just thats the End that i see being available to me long term if i can master forge welding - i like to set my sights high or i will lose motivation. if i thought all i will/need ever do is get a section of steel and loop the end and make an ugly looking burned blobby attatchment, then i definately would not be having this conversation!!! youve got to apsire to making beautiful intuitiuve work or why bother with any of it. i express my self differently to some and am often misunderstood for that reason i do realise there is a long way to go before i can shape and weld at the same time - what an exciting prospect though!!!
and as for the johnny vegas /john bellamy comparison, there aint even one john - we will have to agree to disagree :)

[Jura T]

I was ready to put this project on hold, but decided to give it a last try today. I'm glad I did as it turned out fairly good. The flower is just a quick mockup to see how it would look like finished.

[beth]

its very exciting jura - love how it looks, very appealing - what did you make the flower centre out of??

[jake pogrebinsky]

VERY competently-looking element,well done,Jura!

Just the fact of seeing the importance of this,and similar elements,speaks highly of a given smith's imagination.There's a great meaning to these "simple"-appearing details such as this one of Jura's,and all the examples that John was so kind to post.

They're,among other things,a very tricky BALANCE between the structural,the geometric,and the organic.Each of which has it's own requirements,balancing which with others is a complex juggling act.

I see this one of Jura's as a good example of this:The branches look organic(the way real branches meet and part on flora).Yet,their curves/tapers are FAIR(geometric concept used in trades,such as boatbuilding,as well).And,the work of working/tapering them was minimal,as in the old ones in John's pictures,so that some fairly standard,rectilinear stock couldbe used,making smith's work at least somewhat efficient,and therefore doable.

Good going,Jura,i really like that one,thanks for showing it,man.