Utility Hammer

[Shane Stegmeier]

I can bury a 7.5 hp Quincy light industrial 2 stage compressor with a 80gal reciever, drawing heavy stock in a production run on my 75# Bull Hammer. It does most of what I want to do without waiting but if I was drawing long tapers on 1 1/2" square with more than one iron in the fire I will be waiting. I cannot recommend Bull hammers or the new company Pheonyx Power Hammers, they work very well, but when something goes wrong if you couldn't build the hammer yourself, you are essentially orphaned because the company doesn't provide support. I have broken my Bull twice, and had to figure it out myself and order parts from a standard hydraulics supplier, and I still don't have the controls correctly reset. When the hammer was brand new it had incredible control.

As for the Big Blu, it is a nice hammer, but sand does not equal steel, it does deaden the ring a bit, but steel mass is what helps with hammer efficiency. If I remember the specs correctly the IronKiss is heavier, and has a better anvil to ram ratio. This is not a slam, its physics, and it is also one of the reasons the IronKiss is more expensive, big fat chunks of steel are not cheap. Both hammers have nice controls, the IronKiss uses a control system like on a steam hammer to adjust the length of stroke which is very nice for some types of work and cumbersome in others, once you get used to it there are lots of possibilities with it. The Big Blu has a standard treadle which is very sensitive and works great. They are different. If I were to buy a new utility style hammer (instead of a good used Chambersburg, or building one myself), I would probably go with the Big Blu too, it is after all cheaper. It is hard to argue with price, if price is a consideration. If money is less of an obstacle, then you buy whatever you like best... Which still might be the cheaper hammer ;-)

As for noise run a heavy hose from the hammer exhaust and run it outside and put a good sized muffler on it. Hammers are noisy invest in good hearing protection, protect anything you want to keep.

Of course Clifton Ralph thinks that a good sized mechanical with the proper brake and tuning will outwork an air hammer, be cheaper to buy, and cheaper to run. My caveat to that is it takes a bit more skill to opperate a mechanical and the learning curve is a bit steeper and longer in my opinion. Personally even though they don't hit as hard as a mechanical, or generally as fast flat out, I prefer the control on an air hammer, utility or selfcontained. I have played on a number of different hammers over the years, and I have a weakness for steam hammers and Nazels.

Written with absolutely no malicious intent, I like the guys at Big Blu, and John Larson.

[ChrisB]

+1 to what James said. Try before you buy. Even if it means road trips. These hammers are not cheap and dropping that amount of cash and then finding out 6 mos later you didnt get the best machine for your application would really stink..

[nonjic]

Did anyone test a Big Blu / Ironkiss for the 'power hammer test'? , it would pretty quickly answer any questions about all out power.

IIRC the Blu hammer needs 140psi to operate, whereas the Ironkiss will run on as low as 60psi, Personally I dont like having shop air above 90-100 psi as I feel the odds of a compressor fail, or leaks / hose fails / connection failures increases exponentionally above 100psi (my view only, based on experience, not any hard science!)

(Ive got a 25kg and 40kg anyang 'self contained' set up at the moment, so will try and run the test on them this weekend if I can find any 1"sq stock)

Ill go with everyone else that youve got to try before you buy. All things being equal you will still have the hammer when you retire, so a few weeks chooseing the right one is time well spent!

Out of interst, MarkH, are you affiliated with Big Blu in any way?

[Mark Emig]

To throw in my 2 cents, I bought a Big Blu about 5 years ago. Great customer service after the sale. It does eat air. I have a 7.5 horse comnpressor-should have got 10. I lose air when I am doing production work. My thought is that when you are looking at purchasing a hammer, do what you would for any other large purchase. Set a budget (don't forget the cost of the compressor wich you will need), look at what hammers are available in that range, and to echo a previous post, do a road trip. Call the manufacturers, find someone somewhat close, call them and ask if you can do a "test drive". I found some hammer owners who were very helpful and let me demo their hammers. After 5 years I am very satisfied with the Big Blu. No breakdowns at all in 5 years with medium to heavy service. At the time of my purchase it was the best hammer I could buy for what I had to spend. There was better hammers around, but they were more than the budget allowed. The main thing is, for me anyway, that the machine paid for itself and now generates PROFIT, not payments.

[ptree]

I would like to qualify:
I do not own a pnuematic utility hammer.
I do own a home built mechanical hammer.
I like to think I am friends of John Larson, and Josh and the big Blu guys, and Tom Clark was a friend as well.
I have bought millions of dollars of industrial equipment.

That said, here goes.
When buying a machine, the best thing to do first is to write out a couple of things.
First write a list or REQUIRED specs. Then wanted spec's. Then wished for spec's
IE The machine must be able to run on single phase and not more than X# amps. Must fit in a space so big etc. Must be able to handle X size part. Look at TOTAL installed cost. That would include shipping, foundations, compressors electrical services etc.
Next look at the factory published spec's and make a matrix to compare side by side.

Then once you have winnowed down to 2 or 3 best fits go try them. Consider things like service, parts availability.

With something as long lived as a hammer, the ability to maintain the hammer is critical. I have spent a career in industry that had orphaned equipment, that required making parts, often having to reverse engineer the parts to keep them running. We had machine shops available, and it was often still a nightmare.

If at all possible get and guard with your life parts lists, and even drawings for the machine. Pays in the long run.

I have run Big Blu, Iron Kiss, Sailiners, Little giants, Homebuilts, and the odd Acme and National upsetter. All have unique features. Both the Big Blu and the Iron Kiss are made in the US, with pride by Americans. Both use standard off the shelf air components. BUT, off the shelf today, does not mean off the shelf in 5 years or 10 years. Pnuematics manufacturs are in the same industry consolidation as most factories. If at all possible buy a set of the air valving as spares. The cylinders on these jewels are NFPA in both cases so these are less likely to be hard to find.

[Sweany]

I like GOOD solid facts, thanks guys!

[hammerkid]

I personaly dont own one , but i HAVE worked with my teachers Big BLU 155 and it is AWESOME!!! If I ever get the space and money I`ll go BLU all the way.

[arftist]

IIRC the Blu hammer needs 140psi to operate, whereas the Ironkiss will run on as low as 60psi

You didn't remember correctly. It took me less than 3 minutes to go to both websites and determine that the minimum pressure for Big Blu is 140 and the minimum pressure for Iron Kiss is 80.

(Ive got a 25kg and 40kg anyang 'self contained' set up at the moment, so will try and run the test on them this weekend if I can find any 1"sq stock)


Right, because 1"sq. is so rare the days.



Out of interst, MarkH, are you affiliated with Big Blu in any way?

Out of interest John, are you afiliated with any hammer manufacturers? Would it matter?
Bottom line is this; Try to contact Anyang, see how long before you get any response. Try to contact BigBlu. Compare the two times. Now think about needing an o-ring for a hammer. Big Blu, Iron Kiss, etc.,go to your nearest auto parts store, buy the one you need. An-Yang, sorry, we don't have that size. No, it is not metric either. You will have to contact the manufacturer. Good luck.

Before the hits the fan, it may be different now, but when I called around, Big Blu answers the phone. Still waiting to hear from An-yang, and it has been years.

[Dragons lair]

I emailed member jamesrjohnson the US dealer for anyang had a response within 12 hrs.
Try email or PM.
Ken

[kasper]

Anyang.....any problem i had was handled with in a working day[steve Hansl,James Johnson] Best Regards

[dablacksmith]

ive been reading this post and ive noticed its kinda turned into a ford vercus chevy thing. i figured ide add my 2 cents worth .. ive used a few different mechanicals and a few air hammers over the years (bolth self contained and compressor driven) . i find that the compressor driven require a large compressor to get the most out of them so add that to the price . what type of work and how often your useing it makes a difference .mechanicals are still the most economical generally .... but they do have limitations . the self contained are the nice to run as are the compressor driven .price and durability are the question. as far as noise they arnt quiet ... compressor noise and hammering noise ...I really think the hammer to have is a self contained air hammer but what brand.... well you got a choice ... get a old one (chambersburg ect) or buy a new one (anyang striker say mak ect) .. what kind of budget do you have ? and what are the nearby distributors ...and how often are you going to forge 2 in stock ? if you are mostly useing it on 1 in or smaller stock ide look into a mechanical ...they have been around for over a hundred years and working good ..also much more economical ... the reason i like the self contained over the compressor type is the seperate compressor ... its a extra expence and really noisy or really expencive . ive run compressors for auto work for years and they can die on you also ... granted if you buy a big quality one they last longer but theyre goes the expence ... and they run a lot when your useing the hammer .if noise is a problem they are not the answer...now haveing said that they can hammer out the steel real well ..good luck!!

[nonjic]

Out of interest John, are you afiliated with any hammer manufacturers? Would it matter?

Sorry, yes, I thought I had always been very trasparent about the fact that I own Massey In the Uk, and am the distributor for Anyang Hammers in the UK and Ireland.

To me, it does matter if someone has an affilation to a product that they reccomend. That is why I asked the question.

If I popped up in a SayMac -v-s Anyang thread, said these guys rock, and popped a link into my website I think its vitally important that people know I have an affilation to the product. Otherwise I could just spend my day saying how great the hammers are and posting links. ( I am not in anyway infering that this happens. )

OK,. I could have looked up the air requirements for the two utility hammers. I diddnt. The difference between 80PSI and 140 PSI is still enormous. I was not stating a fact, hence I preceeded it with 'IIRC' (If I Recall Correctly).

And Yup, in my factory 1" square stock is quite rare, we mostly work with heavy stuff.

Hope this clears up your concerns.

(I have run the 'power hammer test' on an 88lb machine, the results are posted in the thread)

[Senft]

Does anyone know if or how the pneumatic controls on a Big Blue differ from the standard kinyon?

[arftist]

I think I would have to have a go on a Big Blu before I parted with my own cash for one, from the vids Ive seen of them running they dont look to have any firepower at all for a 155lb hammer, and they need crazy high PSI to operate.

The above quote cannot be construed as anything but derogatory. I know you are a chinese hammer dealer as I have been reading your posts for over a year. The original poster would be hard pressed to know your history however.

[Josh Smith]

Does anyone know if or how the pneumatic controls on a Big Blue differ from the standard kinyon?

Yes they are very much different, all of our controls are engineered specifically for our hammers.

[nonjic]

The above quote cannot be construed as anything but derogatory. I know you are a chinese hammer dealer as I have been reading your posts for over a year. The original poster would be hard pressed to know your history however.

With respect, I beg to differ that my earlier post is derogatory.

The statement about me having to try a Big Blu before I purchased one is fact.

I stand by my comment that 'they dont look to have any fire power for a 155lb hammer' - if you read the 'power hammer test' thread the results would appear to back up my thoughts that there is a lack of blow energy for the ram weight of the hammer.

I, personally, as someone who works in the forging industry designing, building, repairing, installing and maintaining forging hammers for a living think that 140 psi is a very high operating pressure for a small utility hammer. (perhaps I could have phrased it better than 'crazy high' , but however you wave a stick at it 140 is a lot of PSI)

I was mearly making informed observations between the Big Blu hammer and the Ironkiss hammer, and at no point attempted to steer the original poster towards a self contained hammer.

As you have been reading my posts for over a year I am sure you will agree that I have, throughout my membership of IFI given good professional, detailed, and impartial advice about forging hammers of all types to those who have needed it.

[yesteryearforge]

I like this thread
This is what a forum should be about
CIVIL conversation and difference of opinions.
I can agree with John N as I too have been reading his post for a long time and have never felt that he had mis represented himself or behaved in any way other than a proffesional.

Mike Tanner

[arftist]

Yes, you have posted much valuable and acurate information here. Thankyou. Whether a comment is derogatory or not is likely a matter of opinion. Your's and mine certainly differ. As to the power hammer tests, aside from all the variables mentioned by other posters, of which there were many, I would add that the greatest variable is one not mentioned at all yet likely most profound; that the temperature of all specimens would have to be identical for such test to have any validity at all. One's observation of "near welding heat" leaves a lattitude of perhaps several hundred degrees farenheight.
As far as pressures go, 140p.s.i. is hardly a lot of pressure. The local discount store sells devices which produce 4500p.s.i. I design and install hydraulic systems up to 3000p.s.i. I have worked with waterjets at over 40,000 p.s.i.

[patrick]

I do not own an air hammer, but have run both Big Blue and Ironkiss machines. I own and regulary use a 300lb Bradley mechanical. A hammer of this size is not a good comparison to any of the smaller air hammers. That being the case, I still have an opinion and experience I'd like to contribute to this discussion.

I had the good fortune to take a power hammer class at the Big Blue Power Hammer school and would highly recomend that for any owner or potential owner of a power hammer. One of my classmates was John Larson, the builder of the Ironkiss machines. During the class, John recommended that the valving and hose sizes be increased on the hammers to change their performance. This was done with one hammer, and it did make a difference in how hard the hammer hit. Since John does custom build his machines it is easier for him to experiment and change from one machine to the next than it is for a higher volume shop. The owner of Big Blue stopped by one evening during the class and in conversation said that his hammers are not designed to take the place of or compete with a large industrial style machine like a Chambursburg or Nazel. They are desigened to handle smaller work, which they do very well. John's machines are based on the industrial equipment and are therefore a heavier machine. They are also designed for a different style of forging.

The flat die forging techniques taught by Clifton Ralph and Steve Parker are adapted from large scale forging. These techniques really require wide dies and a substantial stroke length to be most effective. It also requires quite a bit of power in many cases since the tools must be forced to move through the steel or steel must be forced through narrow gaps in the tools.

I see Big Blue hammers used most often for drawing and "Free Form" forging and they do an excellent job with this type of work. The narrow dies allow for rapid displacement of metal and since the metal is not constrained by tools, less power is needed to create the finished form. However, the narrow dies are not conducive to working with tools.

When comparing these two hammers, keep in mind that the Ironkiss is designed as a flat die utility hammer and is built to work well with lots of different tooling configurations. The Big Blue is marketed heavily for "Free Form" forging which is completly different and therefore has different requirements in machine design and construction. Both hammers are good tools. The question really comes down to what you as a user want to do. Having used both tools, and given MY style of forging, I would choose an Ironkiss if money was no object. Keep in mind that if this is your first hammer, you may not have your own style yet so without a doubt your work will adapt to the capabilities of the hammer.

I would highly recommend that you contact both companies and have them give you the specifics for their machines. They are friendly competitors and would probably willingly offer you their opinion of their competition.

Patrick

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Yes they are very much different, all of our controls are engineered specifically for our hammers.

Josh, glad to see you on board. Please be a little more specific! Ron Kinyon IS an engineer, thus what he designs IS (by definition) engineered! I would caution you that most states don't allow you to use the terms "engineer" "engineered" or "engineering" unless you are one or the work was actually done by an a licenced professional engineer. Now, of course, all us wannabe's can throw it around all we want, it's only forbidden in a professional/commercial context.

Presonally I would rather hear something like "after twenty years and exaustive field testing we have settled on a system of pneumatic components that, in our experience and opinion, will give the best perfomance and reliability".

Ineresting thread indeed!

Grant

"It's not really an optical illusion, it just looks like one"

[Jamesrjohnson]

I have been reading the blog and wanted to add a few thoughts. I was at the SBA conference and met the Big Blu guys... seemed like good guys. My father also has traveled to England and spent a full day with John N. He may be one of the most knowledgeable people around on self contained air hammers. His father worked for Massey and John bought the company. His living is made by repairing huge Massey power hammers. He also imports Anyang hammers into England. John is a pro around pneumatic power hammers.
One of the threads mentioned that there was there was nobody at Anyang to talk to if you needed help or spare parts like "O" rings. I also import Anyang hammers into the US and my personal phone is 940 6274529 and I answer it between the hours of 7am and 10pm, 7 days per week. I won't sell you an "O" ring, because Anyang does not use them. There are no plastic or rubber parts on the hammer. I have been using these hammers full time in an industrial setting since 2003 and I have had absolutely zero maintenance other than keeping oil in the machine or grease in the bearings. If you ever do need parts or dies, I carry a full range of all wearing parts. If you just want to talk about hammers, I am always available to do that. I am a full time blacksmith. I also happen to sell these hammers because I believe in them.
I will not knock any of the other power hammers out there... but again my best advise is before you buy any hammer, use it, make sure you know what you are getting. OBTW, my shop is always open for anyone who wants to test fly an Anyang (I have 5 set up and running) or even a Little Giant 50 (yes, I also use that hammer). I hope that nobody considers this to be an advertisement... just wanted to state some facts. You can check out some of my work at James Johnson Metalsmith

[dlpierson]

Not to hijack the thread, but you have some very impressive work there James! I like your style a lot.

[Jamesrjohnson]

Dlpierson:
Thanks, blacksmithing has always been my passion. Appreciate your comment. J

[Glenn]

As this thread has progressed, there have been some comments based on limited working knowledge, ie having tried the (specific) hammer a time or two. There have been shadows cast as to being associated with a product influencing any information provided by that person. There are also some strong opinions expressed.

Ford country sells more fords, Chevy country sells more Chevys, and NYC has more taxi cabs.

With today's economy, car parts are available for only 10 years and the vehicle orphaned. Lifetime warranties are being honored by replacement with a product that has only a one year warranty. There is no guarantee your purchase will be supported for your lifetime, or continued to be supported for the lifetime of the those that later purchase your the machine. GM has announced closure of 450 more U.S. dealerships on top of 1,100 closures announced earlier this month. What about the parts to keep these vehicles running.

Ptree, Patrick, and Grand seem to have summed it up well, if you are going to spend your money on a hammer for your shop, then look at all the hammers available. Gather the facts, then gather information from those that have used multiple machines (not just one machine), and determine which machine will function best in your situation. Go to the dealers and run one of their machines for a day or more, keeping in mind that they are tuned to the best ability of those that should know how. Only then can you make an informed decision on your purchase. And as Ptree pointed out, purchase all the needed spares while they are still available and still fit your machine to keep it operating into the future.

Let the discussion continue but we need to narrow it down a bit to what we KNOW to be facts. One time use of a machine, or experience and use of only one brand or model of machine offers little value to the original question,

I want to buy a utility hammer, new or used. No power hammer experience yet, but lots of anvil work. Work up to 2" stock. I have plenty of air but worry about noise. Any suggestions or offers?

[Shane Stegmeier]

Lots of little things to nitpick;-)

PSI... most old steam hammers and air hammers that I have heard of were run on LOW (30-100)PSI and HIGH Volume. All of them when converted to air are major air hogs:-) Big sturdy industrial cyclinders need a LOT of volume FAST you need a big supply pipe.

So there are lots of people who would rather not run their shop air @ 140PSI and I know a few people who run Bull Hammers which were specked to run @ 135PSI at a lower pressure just to be on the safe side (I often do that...) What you do in industry with crazy high pressure hydraulics, not withstanding, blowing out a hose or some other component with over 100PSI is going to scare you at least... We all have different comfort levels with different dangerous situations some of us don't like line shafts, some are leary of high pressure in shop lines, but will be fine with a hydraulic ironworker working at much higher pressure.

Everyone is intitled to their own opinion.

Patrick made some very good points in his posts, flat die work is different (and I am more used to that style of work.) To be honest I think most air hammers with goodsized flat dies seem underpowered compared to mechanical or steam hammers (with enough free air) You will notice that many air hammers ship with small flat dies as one of the suggested options. VARP (Volume Area Resistance and Power) big dies mean you will TEND to be striking a larger area, which generally requires more power to get the punch you want. Thats why the drawing and crown dies are so popular, you get the most bang out of the power available.