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I Forge Iron


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Everything posted by ptree

  1. Wish you be too Thomas. An aloha shirt would add to the eclectic mix.
  2. ptree

    A close call

    Having designed and built presses in industry to 100 tons, and worked on many to 2400 tons, including in forge shops may I offer a little safety insight? First in hydraulics, it is not a question of if there will be a leak but when and how bad. As Frosty notes encase those flex lines. Use the least number of flex lines possible. Use seamless pipe if using pipe. DO NOT USE hardware store cast iron fittings. For more pressure than 150 psi go with the class rated forged fittings, ie for 1000 psi buy class 1000 fittings. Get the pipe schedule that matches. Put a nice big fire extinguisher right inside the exit door, hung right underneath the cutoff switch for the press that you thoughtfully ran there. Why? So you can do the smart thing and GET OUT of the building, turn off the press from outside by reaching in, and while standing outside, in clean air make the decision, small enough to fight or oh shucks lets call 911.
  3. the Meteorite Mashers will be meeting in my shop, in Floyds Knobs Indiana, very very close to you on the Saturday after Thanksgiving for the "Smoked Turkey Hammer-in" a meeting for which I hickory smoke several turkeys for the lunch entree. PM me, I am often in the shop on Sundays.
  4. NEVER EVER use a regular shop compressor to supply breathing air. Oil in the compressor can and OFTEN does combust, poorly, make carbon monoxide. You will then go to sleep, and maybe permanently. The seal line on most masks is along the ridge of the jaw. Facial hair will prevent a seal. greasing down the hair will improve the seal, but not perfect the seal. How much of the stuff outside the mask do you care to breath? OSHA always requires that engineering controls be used first. Simply said, remove the threat BEFORE it reaches the worker. So local exhaust would be the first choice. A 125 foot per minute movement of air across the point of generation into an exhaust duct will capture the threat smoke, fume etc. Now as we have long ago learned with coal smoke the farther away the exhaust pipe is the more air has to flow to capture the smoke. Put a 1" duct right at the MIG gun nozzle, and the mig fume is GONE. These are production items, used in factories. They work. Grinding? use a duct right under the wheel/belt. The particles are already moving in the right direction. Put a flip over door on the duct and one small fan can suck the dust up from many points as only one needs that magic 125FPM. How big a fan you ask? do a little math, a 4" by 4" duct opening has 16 square inches and 16 divided by 144= .11 that .11 times 125 = 13.88 CFM fan if all friction in the duct is ignored. I would happily use a small say 20cfm blower rated for suction. I would run that duct into the center of a 5 gallon bucket with 1/4 fill of water. The duct would enter vertically down and stop about 3/8 to 1/2" above the water. I would have an exit to the blower from the top of the bucket. The velocity of particals downward would cause them to impact the water rather than do a 180 degree turn to exit. I would still pipe the exhaust from the blower outside, both for noise and for that odd bit that gets by the water. In effect this is a poor man's metal dust collector as has been built by many vendors for maybe 80 years. Why wear a respirator with a beard and not have it seal if you can remove the threat this way. I don't have a beard, don't grind that much but have a P-100 respirator for when I do. Weld smoke is exhausted in my shop by general ventilation via a 3500 cfm fan causing a cross flow of air across my weld table.
  5. It would appear that 3M does not make the N-100 pancake filters for this respirator.
  6. Thomas my friend, I am so sorry for your loss.
  7. I would go with the real 3M filters. For back ground, I have over 20 years of EHS experience in metal working factories. I find the pancake style like these to be very easy to breath through. Question, if you are not in an oil mist environment as well as dusty, you know than a N-100 is less expensive? the P or N refers to Permissible or Not as far as oil mist. The N type are often half the price of the P type.
  8. Sorry to hear of the health issues, I missed all of it while I was deployed to Portland Oregon for 7 weeks.
  9. my 70# guided helve hammer uses a compact spare tire as bot flywheel and clutch. Works very nicely. Used a 1990 Gran Caravan rear axle bearing hub assembly. It bolted to the axle and so I just unbolted the entire bering hub assembly took the spare tire and another wheel from the junker. The hub assembly bolted onto the hammer frame using the original bolts from the van. I cut the center from the second wheel and used that to weld a bottom for the pittman to and then just placed it over the compact spare. Has been running since 2005. I started at 32# and the Vee belt drive sorted of worked. Upped the ram to 45# and smelled burning rubber and it was jerky as it needed a flywheel. Went to the tire clutch. A couple of years ago I upped to 70# and changed the ram guide to mostly mirror the tire hammer slide design.
  10. Judson, Harrington makes really first class industrial hoists, been using them in heavy industry since 1981. They are more expensive than Jet. That said Jet is also good. The harbor freight hoists are crap. If you take their nameplate rating and cut in half, then deduct another say 15% you are probably safe.
  11. I get the ground hogs, and dirt daubers as well as trapped birds. The scariest was a white tail buck, neck fat in full rut who was half way in the shop door. I turned around from the power hammer and he was about 6' away. He backed out quick when I waved the hot end of the bar in his face. talk about closing the door quick after!
  12. Wow that is a loud pump! sounds like it is cavitating. Are you sucking oil up from the tank? if so you may have a small air leak and that will make the noise and kill the pump. If the suction line is undersized that will also cavitate the pump.
  13. Wecome, while not in Kentucky, the indiana Blacksmithing Association is very active with 13 sattalite groups across Indiana. Our group meets in Southern Indiana. If you google Indiana Blacksmithing Association you will find a satellite group page and just click on the groups closest for meeting dates and contact info. Our group, the Southern Indiana Meteorite Mashers may be the clossest to you with the Vernon group about a tie. A Saturday in a real forge with a smith to show you hands on is worth alot when you are starting out.
  14. If using the rod as the hammer face no. The hard chrome will not turn from Chrome 5 to chrome 6(Hexavalent chrome) at any temp seen in forging. The place where Hex chrome is evolved from plain chrome is at very high temps like in an arc weld and especially in a TIG weld as the temp is high enough and the severe ultra-violet energy as excites the chrome atoms to jump up to valance +6 As a safety guy in factorys, where extensive welding is uses I have studied this a bit:) Hex chrome is a real issue when welding stainless steel as the chrome contents in SS vari from about 13% to 18%. Most alloy steels have less than 1%. The chrome in plating is an issue if welding. The chrome plating baths themselves are a source if working around them. Hex chrome is an issue, but then all weld smoke is an issue. Coal smoke is an issue. If you are breathing, anywhere in the world, you are breathing some magnesium silicate, a mineral in the earth. Magnesium silicate is also called asbestos. If there is anything in the air you breath, beyond the normal gasses that make up our atmosphere then you are breathing in stuff that is an issue. Sooo.... avoid breathing smoke. avoid breathing dust. Remember that dust you can see in the air is usually not the issue, it is the particulate that is too small to be seen that is the most harmful. If you are healthy enough and do not have facial hair a respirator can be used to filter out most of this stuff. A N-100 filter will remove the particulate. Smoke is by the way comprised mostly of particulate.
  15. Here is a couple of photo's of the BFH team's trvel anvil, a 252# Axle forging. This is an as forged, not machined 4140 axle shaft. The flange was undersize and so scrapped. My big striking anvil looks much the same but is 454# and is taller so the flange is burried some to bring the top down to the right height. Our team has forged 9 of these big split crosses from 3" square, a couple of carved wizards from 3" square and recently a boat anchor from 2" round bar. This axle shaft anvil rings loudly. The top although not heat treated has not mushroomed under the steady assault of as many as 4 strikers, although errant blows have dented it occasionally. We have traveld to Pontiac Ill. , Tipton Indiana and Cannelton Indiana as well as Jeffersonville indiana twice to demonstrate with this anvil.
  16. Cylinder shafting does not weld well as it is a high carbon very hardenable material. The rod bearings from cylinders are not designed for much side loading and will wear quickly. The piston seals will make much drag. If bound and determined to use something like this, look at Parker Hannifen brand "Jewel glands" these are a cartridge bearing used in hydraulic cylinders and are a kit you buy. Take the seal out of the bearings but use the rod scraper to keep the scale from eating the bronze bearing up. Us a long rod salvaged and use the threaded ends to attach to the ram and the spring. Personally I have a spring hammer running with a tire clutch and a ram guide modeled off the Tire hammer. You only need to be able to weld plain steel, and be able to use a side grinder and a drill press. Thread a few holes.
  17. The standard rod material for cylinders is IHCP. that is induction hardened, chrome plated and then ground. As IANINSA notes very good shafting. Not so good for forging. You can cut with an abrasive saw. Be aware that the surface with the Hard chrome, and the induction hardened case and core is harder than woodpecker lips and will dull any toothed saw. But great for shafts. You can if you have a lathe use a carbide tool and from the end enter the steel from about 0.015" under the chrome and turn the od. This will pop off the chrome and the hardest part. then you can drill for cotter pins or even thread the shaft. This is the method used when the shafts are made in the cylinder factories to allow threading of the already hard shafts. These have a perfect finish at about 32 micro-inch for oil lubricating plain bearings and seals. Unless the shaft is scored don't polish as you already have a nearly perfect diameter and finsh for a shaft.
  18. test The axle is 1045H. I worked in the shop that made those for 3 years.The axle is uniformly hardened into a case and core hardness from the splines down to the flange. I cut them with a bimetal bandsaw all the time. The case stars at the surface and declines as you reach the center. If heat treating do not hold longer than to get a uniform heat and quench in oil. Temper within 45 minutes, as quench cracking can occur if not tempered before 45 minutes. A water quench is a crack nightmare. This steel makes good hammers and hot cuts. If an axle is 1 3/8" diameter in the unforged shaft it is 1045H and if bigger say from a dump truck or semi than 1541H. Big rubber tire loader with say 3" shafts are usually 4140. The splines and bearing area are the same hardness as the shaft.
  19. I started at Westinghouse Air Brake Co, WABCO fluid power division in their engineering test lab while in school after the ARMY. Testing hydraulic and pneumatic industrial items. Also large ship controls. After a 2 years there I moved to Henry Vogt Machine Co in Louisville and ran the R&D lab. tested for the valve and fitting Div at first and then expanded to do boilers and ice machines and so forth. Now these were little modular heat recovery steam generators, that went behind turbine generators. These boilers took about 108 rail cars to ship:) Once burst tested a header, 12" O.D. by 1.25" wall, with Vogt forged plugs welded into the ends. when it burt at about 20,000psi it drew a large crowd from the factory to see what had blown up:) We hydro tested every product we shipped, and since we shipped about 100,000 valves a month imagine the hydro test dept. I built all of that automatic test equipment for VOGT for about the last 20 years I was there. Some were testing at 10,5000psi all day every day, running up to pressure and dropping, then up to 6750psi then dropping and a new valve in to be tested. cycle time was less than 60 seconds. You really have to have the right plumbing for that kind of thing:)
  20. Anytime Frosty:) I used to put up all sorts of things to not do in forge presses but was trolled away. But then I worked in forge shops with hydraulic presses from 1981 till 2005. Seen the failures and the fires and injuries. But trolls are trolls. I do not now hve a press in my shop, but may. Have a nice big 14" bore and the 32 GPM pump. Now just figuring the prime mover and it will be after the toy helve hammer now in works and after the 200# guided helve hammer that is behind that. So many projects so little time.
  21. Actually in hydrostatic testing water is a much smaller molecule and lower viscosity than water. In hydrostatic testing for the high pressure piping and pressure vessel water is almost always specified to test with. Cheap, environmentally friendly and with a small molecule and low viscosity it shows leaks much better than oil, especially when you get over a say 5000 psi. At 10,000 psi water's viscosity actually is decreased from ambient where most straight hydraulic oil is jello. The oil used by the 10,000 psi folks like Enerpac is primarily;y Kerosene as it does not increase viscosity as badly. At 33,000 psi, the highest my lab at the Valve and fitting company could generate we used water. Of course I was burst testing at those pressures so the fact that the water could just run down the test cell floor drain was a real plus. That and the mist from a pin hole at that pressure makes for a great flamethrower when using oil if an ignition source is found. A burst in 2.5" od by 0.340" wall DOM boiler tube sounded much like a half stick of dynamite when it burst. Did I mention that my job for 17 years was to find every flaw and break everything I was handed? I loved that job:) Never found anything I could not break!
  22. Different surface tension perhaps. Water is used to test for leakage UNDER PRESSURE (Hydrostatic) as is decreases viscosity under pressure the opposite of most oils. The other possibility is either the water evaporated faster then it leaked or there were inclusions in the weld that the oil dissolved. For a straight oil tank, if rewelding does not solve the issure, empty, clean well, then heat to about 350-450F and let cool. Then brush the joints with Lock-tite 290. This is the green wicking sealant. it will wick into the leak paths and set up. wont hurt the oil. The standard industrial practice is to weld new tanks and then brush all the joints as insurance especially in refrigeration recievers and so forth.
  23. Press speed is usually important in that the dies suck heat out of the billet. So a press that moves faster when actually pushing the work lets more work per heat occur. Two speed pumps are great to get the press down to the work, and then limit the Hp draw when at pressure. The Hp demand is usually pretty low in two speed mode as most have a 500 psi limit and then the bigger pump bypasses letting the small flow pump make the working flow/pressure. A great source for valving and pumps and bell housings etc is Baily sales in Knoxville Tn. 1-800-800-1810
  24. Built industrial systems for years and even went to a filtration school:) Here are the tidbits I can offer. 1. Every hydraulic system that has a cylinder that is NOT a double rod, that is has a rod only on one side of the cylinder, breaths air in and out every stroke. The rod displaces oil so it takes more oil on the side of the piston without the rod to fill and this pulls oil out of the system. When the cylinder is retracted this extra oil return to the tanks displacing the air. Sooo... you are making the tank breath every stroke. The air you move in and out carries water vapor that condenses and dirt. 2. The stuff that kills hydraulic components is too small to see. Clearances in normal spool valves is on the the order of 6-10 micro meters. In a simple gear pump about 10-15 micrometers. In a high tech variable volume axial piston pump about 2-6 micrometers. A micrometer is a millionth of a meter. A red blood cell in our blood is about 4 x 6 micrometers in size. The average human with good eyesight, looking at a black spec on a white background can see a 70 micrometer particle. The air is full of those hydraulic killer particles. Everywhere, in every state and nation. The air is full of dirt, you just can't see it. 3. We also do stuff like pouring oil that is full of these tiny particles into our tanks. We use old used buckets coffee cups dirty funnels etc. Remember that wiping that stuff with a rag gets the stuff you can see, not the stuff that kills you system. 4. Want to know how the air gets in and out? look at the filler cap. Has a Breather built in. The breather usually looks like the oil breather off a 63 Chevy. Has some mesh inside to keep out dead rats cigarette buts and gravel, not dust you can't see. Want to improve? get a new spin on oil filter that will screw onto a pipe nipple. make a flange to fit where that 63 Chevy breather goes and weld the nipple to it. Install and screw on the filter. Now you have a cheap filter to catch the dust in the air. 5. Add you oil by pumping through a filter. rig up a cheap spin-on oil filter to a pump and use that to pull the oil from your bucket and to then run into your tank. Now you have clean oil in a tank that breaths cleanly. 6. A magnet suspended is cheap insurance. 7. if building your tank, take guidance from industrial practice. use a rectangular layout. use a baffle down the long axis that is open at one end. put your return at one of the blind corners. put your suction at the other blind corner. This forces the oil to take a path twice the length of the tank to go from the return to the suction. this allows it to cool, settle out debris, and the entrained air to float out the top. 8. A suction filter is usually bad practice as they must have a bypass to avoid cavitation when it clogs. They are usually too course to actually protect the pump. But if you use clean oil and a breather that filters then a Return filter is a good thing. And since it is not inside the tank it is easy to change. 9. I like on bigger, more expensive systems to use a "Kidney loop" filtration system. That is a small gear pump usually mounted on a "Thru shafted main pump" that runs when the system is on. I use a 50 gallon a minute spin-on filter, with a 5 micrometer beta rating of 20. that picks up the hottest, dirtiest oil at the return, filters it, runs though a cooler, and returns between the return and the suction for the main pump. 10. Beta rating you ask? Beta rating is the simple rating that tells you how many particles make it through the filter on each pass as in "number upstream/number down stream. Most regular filters like a cheap spin-on are Beta +2 so if you have 100 upstream you have 50 downstream. THAT MEANS HALF ARE GETTING THROUGH!!! Beta 20 is near absolute and is as close to 100% capture as technology will allow. You know those big Lubrafiner filters you see on the side of Semi-trucks? that is Beta 20. If you can fine a housing the filters are pretty cheap:) 11. So we have not discussed the water vapor. It will get in the oil. Period. So hydraulic oil has an additive that deals with that. when that additive is consumed then you start to form carboxylic acid. That is what gives you that classic Burnt smell. If your oil is milky, then you have gross water, not carboxylic acid. Either is a replace the oil NOW. Milky means gross water from say a roof leak or similar is getting in the tank. 12. With the exception of flammability regular old ATF oil is usually one of the best choices in hydraulic oils for home built equipment. It has the best pour point of any easily available oil meaning it does not jell up at very low temps. It has an excellent viscosity index meaning it maintains its viscosity at elevated temps. It has an excellent additive package for extreme pressure, and antiwear as well as a very good anti-oxidation additive. Anti-oxidation additive is the one that deals with water. I offer these thoughts for free and like many opinions they are worth exactly what you paid for them:)
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