Dragons lair Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 A 140 air line with a pinhole or break will scare you. A pinhole in a 3-4000 lb hydro line will hurt or kill you. Think water jet fluid at mega pressure will cut steel will do same for flesh. Have had air lines pop just change your drawers. Hydro leaks may require the undertaker to do it for ya.Be safe guys. Just a thought self contained hammers that require a big compressor? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 After 5 days, let us try to get Frank's question answered. * What new or used hammers can work up to 2 inch stock? I will add that it should actually be able to work that size stock and not overwork the hammer. * If you suggest an air hammer, is his 7.5/80 IR compressor able to run the hammer? I will add that while working the stock (up to 2 inch) you should not have to wait on the hammer to catch up. If his compressor is not able to run the hammer suggested, what size compressor would you suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I wish Moony would chime in, (actually from the photos I have seen I bet Rthibeau and Moony with 10# sledge hammers could work it fast too) Moony is in the chat a bit, and he not only sells hammers in OZ, but owns hammers from fairly tiny up to a 10ctw, between his personal supply and his vast experience as a smith, I am sure he could give a very clear 'side by side' comparison between various models of hammers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 In making some of my blacksmith art (heavy textured... look at www.johnsonmetalsmith.com) I use 2 by 2 square. I use the Anyang 88 pound hammer. I can use this hammer all day long forging 2 inch stock and it just keeps hitting... it works 2 inch stock like it is butter. Since it is a self contained air hammer, it does not require an air compressor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankA Posted May 30, 2009 Author Share Posted May 30, 2009 I do not own an air hammer, but have run both Big Blue and Ironkiss machines. I own and regulary use a 300lb Bradley mechanical. A hammer of this size is not a good comparison to any of the smaller air hammers. That being the case, I still have an opinion and experience I'd like to contribute to this discussion. I had the good fortune to take a power hammer class at the Big Blue Power Hammer school and would highly recomend that for any owner or potential owner of a power hammer. One of my classmates was John Larson, the builder of the Ironkiss machines. During the class, John recommended that the valving and hose sizes be increased on the hammers to change their performance. This was done with one hammer, and it did make a difference in how hard the hammer hit. Since John does custom build his machines it is easier for him to experiment and change from one machine to the next than it is for a higher volume shop. The owner of Big Blue stopped by one evening during the class and in conversation said that his hammers are not designed to take the place of or compete with a large industrial style machine like a Chambursburg or Nazel. They are desigened to handle smaller work, which they do very well. John's machines are based on the industrial equipment and are therefore a heavier machine. They are also designed for a different style of forging. The flat die forging techniques taught by Clifton Ralph and Steve Parker are adapted from large scale forging. These techniques really require wide dies and a substantial stroke length to be most effective. It also requires quite a bit of power in many cases since the tools must be forced to move through the steel or steel must be forced through narrow gaps in the tools. I see Big Blue hammers used most often for drawing and "Free Form" forging and they do an excellent job with this type of work. The narrow dies allow for rapid displacement of metal and since the metal is not constrained by tools, less power is needed to create the finished form. However, the narrow dies are not conducive to working with tools. When comparing these two hammers, keep in mind that the Ironkiss is designed as a flat die utility hammer and is built to work well with lots of different tooling configurations. The Big Blue is marketed heavily for "Free Form" forging which is completly different and therefore has different requirements in machine design and construction. Both hammers are good tools. The question really comes down to what you as a user want to do. Having used both tools, and given MY style of forging, I would choose an Ironkiss if money was no object. Keep in mind that if this is your first hammer, you may not have your own style yet so without a doubt your work will adapt to the capabilities of the hammer. I would highly recommend that you contact both companies and have them give you the specifics for their machines. They are friendly competitors and would probably willingly offer you their opinion of their competition. Patrick Thanks Patrick for your very informative reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I just finished a sculpture that was made from 3/4" by 4" stock. All of the forging was done by the Anyang 88 hammer. The main body of the sculpture was done in 4 heats. Note, I also forged the 3/4 by 4 inch the hard way. When forging with this hammer, there is no time waiting for air pressure build up. Press the treadle and pound away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Pretty well anything from a 25kg anyang up will work 2" sq all day. Budget comes into it. The guy has already got the air there so a utility hammer might make sense. I would like to see the Ironkiss hammer in the 'power hammer test' thread before I called it! Moony would work the 2" stock on his 10 cwt Massey, coz he can! Nice work James! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 (edited) I have a friend on another forum who will do the test with the 100 and 150 pound IronKiss hammers John, don't call it yet ! James, nice work, you are the king of copper and steel, the textures and finishes are gorgeous! Edited May 30, 2009 by ApprenticeMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Here is my experience for what it is worth. Used a 75# Dupont. Hits hard, not very good controll(for me). Owner could make a 3" ball in one heat. Use a 75# spring helve which I built. Hits almost as hard as Dupont. Very good controll (for me). Requires only 2hp. Use a 100(?)# Salinger(sp?) at work (yes I have a job, unbeleivable huh?) hits hard, great controll, makes funny chugging noise, must have cost a fortune, probably performs similar to an AnYang. In my opinion, mechanical hammers are the best buy in the long run. They use way less electricity than air hammers for the same work, and they have less moving parts than self-contained hammers (at least as far as spring helves go). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 The following hammers have been discussed Anyang, Big Blu, Iron Kiss and the KA-75. In order to be fair to all, I called all four on Saturday just before noon. Iron Kiss, leave a message and we will get back to you. John Larson returned my call in about 3 hours. The Iron Kiss 100# can work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 7.5 HP @ 17 CFM @ 80-200 psi with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. The Iron Kiss 125# can work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 10 HP with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. The Iron Kiss 150# is about to work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 15 HP with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. American-made and internationally distributed Norgren steel tube cylinders and aluminum valves are used. Cylinders have a life span of a decade or more. Aluminum valves wear out and need to be replaced every several years under heavy use. They will eventually wear out. Replacements and parts are available from any of the many internationally networked Norgren dealers or on the web. KA-75, Tried several times, phone rings, no answer, no message. BigBlu Spoke with Josh Smith who suggested the BluMax 155 hammer for 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 7.5 HP @ 21 CFM @ 140 psi with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. The compoents such as cylinders, switches, guide ways etc are specifically built heavier for use on the hammer but can be replaced by off the shelf parts. Anyang Spoke with James Johnson who suggested the Anyang 88 for 2 inch stock. The 88 can handle 3 inch square stock (max). It will run on single phase 220v electric and does not slow down as there is no need for recovery. James expects to have the Anyang 55 available about September 2009. The Anyang 55 can handle 2 inch stock, runs on single phase 220v electric and does not slow down as there is no need for recovery. As to parts, James says he carries parts. He says there is very little need to replace parts and has only recently shipped out one set of piston rings for a hammer that has been used in a full time production shop with constant operation since 1996. No consideration was given to price, weight, footprint size, foundation needed, etc. No consideration was given to different hammer dies being available, or the working clearance, or overall clearance between the dies. Additional questions need to be ask before a final decision is made and of course you should actually operate any prospective hammer you intend to purchase to be sure it pleases YOU in YOUR situation in YOUR shop. If there are other hammers that can work 2 inch stock, please add them to the list along with specifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 An email mentioned that there is a large difference between amateur and professional blacksmiths. The amateur does not generally use heavy stock and works only for short periods of time, after work or on weekends. The professional blacksmith uses all sizes of stock, works full time, and must produce in order to get paid. For the professional blacksmith the hammer must be constructed in such a way that it can provide years of service, be easily repaired, and used in continuous production. The professional blacksmith can not afford down time, or waiting on the hammer to recover from being undersized, under powered, or needing repairs. The hammer must work. The hammer MUST pay for itself and then turn a profit for the smith on a daily basis. The amateur blacksmith and the professional blacksmith have different requirements for the tools they use. This influences the derision as to which hammer is best for them. As I stated before, your choice of hammer depends on you, in your situation, in your shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 Frank, please do let everyone know what hammer you choose when you choose it, and then maybe a couple weeks later once you have had a chance to run it a bit how you like it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted May 30, 2009 Share Posted May 30, 2009 I have attached several pictures of the 2" square stock that I had forged with the Anyang 88. I have actually worked much larger stock with this hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 (edited) I did not mention this earlier as Frank ask about utility hammers however this thread has been everywhere so when Glenn ask if ther are others to be added to the list I will add this. Say-Mak 50 & 60 kg are still for sale if you can run your 7.5 horse compressor you will not have any problem with either of these. I have had my 50 for 6 years with not one problem. Tom sold over 250 of these hammers and I have not heard of anyone who did not like them. Plug it in and go to work. If you would have a problem I will be glad to help you figure it out. Since Tom has passed I have had a few calls from people having questions all were handled over the phone. If you would like to run one of these hammers or any of the several mechanical hammer s i have here for comparison you are more than welcome to come and visit. For more info PM me or e-mail at Peacock@dishmail.net Phil Edited May 31, 2009 by peacock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 John Larson returned my call in about 3 hours. The Iron Kiss 100# can work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 7.5 HP @ 17 CFM @ 80-200 psi with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. The Iron Kiss 125# can work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 10 HP with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. The Iron Kiss 150# is about to work 2 inch stock. The hammer requires 15 HP with an 80 gallon receiver to operate. He says that it will be able to keep up and not slow down due to air recovery. American-made and internationally distributed Norgren steel tube cylinders and aluminum valves are used. Cylinders have a life span of a decade or more. Aluminum valves wear out and need to be replaced every several years under heavy use. They will eventually wear out. Replacements and parts are available from any of the many internationally networked Norgren dealers or on the web. This was repeated in post #60 to keep the information together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Thanks, Glenn, for giving me a call and placing information about Iron Kiss hammers in the responses. The best way to get information about Iron Kiss hammers is to visit the web site, Iron Kiss Hammers, LLC. and I hope Glenn doesn't consider this advertising. Contact information is there if you want to discuss anything. Thanks again, John Larson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Didn't you talk about a video for your website John ? I'd love to see one of your 150# babies smashing some hot steel ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Hi john, there is a thread in this section called 'power hammer test' that involves striking a piece of bar 5 times & 10 times , and measuring the deformation on the bar. It would be really nice to see your hammers (@140psi for comparison purposes) do the test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 John N, I posted my 31 May 09 100# results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankA Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 Thanks to everybody who participated, and especially to Glenn who put quite some effort into answering my question. I finally decided to order a 125# IronKiss. Larger mass and larger flat dies seemed worth the extra money compared to BigBlue. Phoenix never returned my calls nor emails. Thanks again. I will be happy to report back after I received the hammer and had some time to try it out Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Frank you will be happy with your new hammer, great choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Allright Frank. Wellcome to the forth dimension of blacksmithing. For me, the doors of creativity truly opened when I got my power hammer, as I could now do things I never had either the patience or the energy for before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesrjohnson Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Congratulations Frank. no matter what hammer you purchase, a power hammer allows a blacksmith to take his work to a whole new level (not to mention, saving a lot of wear and tear on the body). This has been an interesting set of discussions. Thanks for getting it started. There was some "Ford vs. Chev" but also some good opinions and facts came out. If people ask me what is the right hammer for them, my first response is "it depends"... on the type of work you are doing, your budget, your future plans and then the capacity, reliability, and controllability of the alternative hammers. Enjoy the hammer and keep us posted not only on the hammer, but on the work you are doing. My perspective is the hammer is only a tool... what is really important is what you create with your tools. regards, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I have used John's hammers at Quad State for several years now, and would love to have one. They are well thought out, well made and work very well. But then any hammer sold to the public should meet all those ideals. I have a junkyard hammer, and it meets 1 out of three of those ideals:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.