Is it over ?

[SmoothBore]

It seems to me, ... that the number of young people seeking an easy, inexpensive means of acquiring "big honkin' swords", and other medieval weapons, has sharply declined.

So, ... has the "fad" officially run its course ?

I guess it really doesn't matter.

Either way, a new generation of "iron smiters" has been spawned.

I'm happy to see that, ... and encourage everyone who feels the urge, to go ahead and "heat it and beat it".

And don't worry yourselves so much, about alloys and chemical compositions, ... it's not really as important as you think .......

 

 

[MrDarkNebulah]

As someone relatively new to the craft, under a year, I have to agree with you. I see all these post saying to not bother with junkyard or unknown steel, but that is the only way I was able to get into it. Don't be discouraged if all you have is rebar, just get to it and try things out.

[C-1ToolSteel]

Yeah. When you try to start out on knives and find out that you have to heat treat it, but it's different for different carbon contents, and even with different carbon contents, there are other factors like chromium... , It gets really confusing. I remember having to take a step back and learn how to make an S hook. Once I did that, it was fun again. No heat treating, no smiley face bevels, just fun at the forge.

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

I use a lot of junkyard steels but have the experience to evaluate them and figure out how they need to be worked.  It really helps to have a basis to work from and then the "hmmm this is working like 5160, or W2, or 1018, or..." is a whole lot easier.  It is very sad to see folks wasting large amounts of time trying to make a piece of steel do what it's alloy is not designed to do.  The frustration also can prevent people from continuing with the craft.  I teach a getting started class and it's designed for students to *succeed* and it uses store bought stock.

[Marc1]

There are many ways to skin a cat Thomas, and then there are some more. 

People succeed in their endeavours not when we tell them how to do it but when they discover how to. Yes, occasionally what you say sort of get's caught between one ear and the other. Most of the time it does not. I think it is more important to allow and make room for mistakes than it is to shelter people from making them.

 

[JHCC]

15 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

It is very sad to see folks wasting large amounts of time trying to make a piece of steel do what it's alloy is not designed to do.  

Let's simplify that even more, TP: "It is very sad to see folks wasting large amounts of time trying to make a piece of steel" when they could just buy a length of known alloy.

[Marc1]

4 minutes ago, JHCC said:

Let's simplify that even more, TP: "It is very sad to see folks wasting large amounts of time trying to make a piece of steel" when they could just buy a length of known alloy.

I disagree.

What you call waste of time is actually learning time. 

Then there is the allure of free, recycled, recovered or whatever else. 

Let people be and work the way they want. Eventually they will come to similar conclusions ... or may be not. My master used to say ... "I have seen horses throw up" 

[C-1ToolSteel]

I agree with both ways of thinking. We shouldn't keep people from experimenting, but we should offer them advice to keep them having fun. There is no place for scolding someone for "wasting steel".

[ThomasPowers]

Sometimes new people make terribly bad assumptions about things they have no clue about.  Red hot steel doesn't care about what you think, it will still burn you if you grab the hot end.   

[C-1ToolSteel]

And you don't have to scold them for it. The steel will take care of that.

[MrDarkNebulah]

I think that the issue is not what steel you start out with but rather what project you use. The steel only really matters to that huge extent once you have done some beginning projects and decide to move on. Too often people are too ambitious, and in those projects the steel type can ruin their desire. 

[boisdarc]

I understand that "more mature" blacksmiths have already used their fair share of junkyard or mystery steel, and when they tell younger smiths, "don't use soandso steel, just spend the money on "x" steel" . They are really saying" hey youngster, I've been there and done that and wasted a lot of my time doing it in the process". It doesn't always come acrossed that way. I personally think that you have to read between the lines of what is being said(typed). However, I also think that men should be held accountable for their speech, especially old men because they should know better-having lived longer than young men. Me personally, I consider my self middle aged, being in my forty's. In a internet environment, civility can often be neglected due to " I'll never see that dude in my life" thinking. Not so much on this forum. But on many others that I read, but am not a member of.

[SmoothBore]

The thing about "known" grades of steel, ... is that it's easy to fool yourself into thinking that, by acquiring that knowledge, you've gained "control" of the process.

And that false sense of security, feels good, ... right up to the point where it bites you in the backside.

For example, ... for decades, ( 50+ years ) I've carried a series of "Buck" brand pocket knives.

And everyone knows, the folks at Buck Knives are famous for their extra hard, durable blades. ( And we also know they are notoriously hard to sharpen. )

And that's where the false sense of security comes in.

In my "knife drawer", there are 5 or 6 Buck pocket knives, with broken blades.

Now, Buck made those blades from "known" materials, ... and heat treated them to a rigorously controlled  standard.

But I STILL broke them, ... through bad luck, or misuse.

Generally speaking, I might have been better served by a slightly "softer" blade, that was less brittle, and easier to sharpen.

But maybe not.

The point being, ... even with manufacturing conditions held to laboratory standards, the "real world" ( and a guy named "Murphy" )  will still have the final say, about the appropriate material for any given task.

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Well it's also sort of like why I teach new students using a propane forge.  That way they are only having to learn how to work steel and not how to work steel and work a coal fire as well.  (One of my apprentices uses the metaphor that a coal fire is "alive" and so needs regular care and feeding and cleaning and... )   Using new known metals and you most likely know that any problems you run into is with your process and not on possible factors from the metals unknown alloy or previous life.

Finally you can tell you "customer"" "This blade was made from 5260" and not "I think it's 5160 but I really don't know".

[Iron Poet]

There is nothing wrong with using scrap metal as long as you know how it reacts and how to properly work it. For instance I'm a big fan of using brushhog blades as I can get them for free and the fact that they're 5160.

There is no reason to shill out of stuff that can be gotten for free.

[Steve Sells]

44 minutes ago, Iron Poet said:

There is nothing wrong with using scrap metal as long as you know how it reacts and how to properly work it. For instance I'm a big fan of using brushhog blades as I can get them for free and the fact that they're 5160.

There is no reason to shill out of stuff that can be gotten for free.

there is if you are going to sell it

If you can not pay $5 to $10 for enough steel to make a knife that will sell for $150, $350, maybe $550 its time to find a new hobby. you not going to last past the first failure.

[ThomasPowers]

Nothing to stop a manufacturer from changing alloys any time they want to. I've run across a low alloy strain hardened leaf spring that you couldn't quench harden before  Good thing I was testing and not assuming it was 5160!

[Iron Poet]

Just now, Steve Sells said:

there is if you are going to sell it

If you can not pay $5 to $10 for enough steel to make a knife that will sell for $150, $350, maybe $550 its time to find a new hobby. you not going to last past the first failure.

I've never received a complaint. Although I only make knives and tools for family and friends since no one actually wants to pay money something of actual quality. I know for a fact that the brushhog blades I use are 5160 since I took the time to look it up online, and for a drawshave or hunting knife it is completely serviceable. Although there are on occasions I do break out the W1 if I need some foolproof material.

[ThomasPowers]

Could you explain how you know that the manufacturer has not changed the alloy used before/since you looked it up? (or after making them was outsourced to China?)  If you are representing them as "made from recycled bush hog blades" then no harm no foul; but if you tell them it's 5160 you need to have the paper trail or test specs for that piece to be sure you're correct. (And test specs are better as I've known a blademaker or two to get shipped the wrong stuff by a steel supplier before!)

I would have thought that a leaf spring was 5160 until I ran across one that wasn't.  Opened my eyes a bit. I use quite a bit of recycled materials in my forging and try to be sure that I represent them correctly.

[Iron Poet]

I don't try to cheat or misinform people, I tell them what it's made of and most people seem to be more interested in the knives made out of scrap than with nice new steel. Less gravitas I suppose, although most of the people I sell too have more money than wits and most likely would never actually use any of them for anything but cutting cheese.

[Frosty]

26 minutes ago, Iron Poet said:

I don't try to cheat or misinform people, I tell them what it's made of and most people seem to be more interested in the knives made out of scrap than with nice new steel. Less gravitas I suppose, although most of the people I sell too have more money than wits and most likely would never actually use any of them for anything but cutting cheese.

My, My, MY should we feel privileged you talk to us? Let's see first you say your "customers" don't care about the quality of your steel because they're family and friends. Then you tell us your customers have more money that wits.

I think you come closest to the truth in your post of an hour ago where you say, " I've never received a complaint. Although I only make knives and tools for family and friends since no one actually wants to pay money something of actual quality."

I think you were close to right there, none of your witless too rich friends are willing to pay much for YOUR quality work.

As a useful bit of advice you should watch what you call your family and friends you never know when your Mother will check go through your computer. Don't worry give it a few years and you can move out and make your own living. I'm sure the too much money lack wits supporting you now will be as relieved as my folks were when I hit the road.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Iron Poet]

I think you're taking this too seriously. I typically don't charge friends or family money for the work I do, just favors and alcohol. My dirt poor friends like handmade knives that can power through a deer sternum, and I've provided them with nice Knives with burl and antler handles for some ground venison. Real salt of the earth type guys who can really appreciate a working tool.

Then I have the people I sell stuff too who don't care about function as long as it looks nice and is interesting. Those people will pay $40 for a letter-opener made from a coilspring, $50 for a single piece knife with a twisted grip made out of a brush hog blade. They're not looking for tools, they're looking for interactive pieces of art and to them having a knife made out of a repurposed material that has a quite little story they can tell while they show it off is more important than having a skinning knife made out of a fresh bar of 1090, a perfect bevel, and a deer horn handle. I've tried to sell nice knives and they don't care for them. Which to me makes very little sense as I'm more of a practical guy. But honestly, they prefer candle holders, pot racks, hooks, and hardware far more than sharp things.

 

I honestly don't know why you took me talking about people spending money on frivolous things (from my perspective) so personally

Mod edit: copyright photo removed

[Glenn]

If you (the general you) are making a knife for practice, fun, etc use what ever material you wish. Have fun. 

If you (the general you) are making a knife that is to be used in combat or survival, for instance, I would suggest that you choose the very best material you can find for that purpose. You do not want a failure for any reason.

Iron Poet seems happy with the results he is getting from his choice of materials and construction techniques. Other knife makers seem happy with their choice of materials and construction techniques. The knives may be of a totally different shapes and used for totally different things. 

[Marc1]

I think that the original post has a nice purpose/intention that seems lost in the thread.

The fad of making swords (was it a TV show perhaps?) has run it's course but has provided as a fringe benefit, a group of people who are interested in a forgotten trade. Get cracking and beat the iron regardless of its provenience.

Who can deny that new graded steel is better than unknown junk?

I think the point was originally a different one.  Metallurgy is complicated and overwhelming for the beginner. Start with the basic and experiment with what you have available. Make mistakes like we all did and learn from them. 

There are two kind of beginners, the one that take what you tell them at face value, apply it yet remember the lesson only when they don't follow the instructions, make a mistake and understand why. 

And the other one who will not follow your instructions because they need to experiment, make the same mistake and then understand why and eventually tell others ... don't do that it does not work ...

[gote]

I think that you are forgetting one point. To many - at least on this side of the pond - it has a value to know that, whatever the implement is, knife or candle stick, is made from repurpoused material. It gives a feeling of not overusing the planet's resources. Of course Glenn is right but I should think that 99% of the tools made by smiths are not used in critical situations.