teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 The topic came up in another post and I was asked about my homemade welding flux I call it Alaska flux as I am looking for away around high shipping charges on chemicals that we have here . I was waiting till I was done with experimenting but with a new baby in the house that may take a while...so let's all experiment together! I am happy to share what I have found so far. Feel free to add your experiments maybe we will find something amazing out together.my main forge is a small gas forge w/ a Frosty T burner .The concept was to add carbon in the mix so the heat needed for the weld is lowered, and boy does it work! I turned mild steel into a fizzing sparkler by getting it too hot while using this stuff.I giggled like a schoolgirl the first time I hit this at welding temps. It shoots sparks out that look like grinding carbon steel. But I knew it worked well when I managed a drop tong weld on 1/16" mild steel straps.Using this mix on mild steel you want to use lower heat or you could end up with a mess. 1 part boric acid. This helps wetting at lower temps and protects sooner. The charcoal is hard to wet without it.1or 2 parts fine hardwood charcoal powder. Large grains will cause issues so the finer the better. Seriously, sand sized grains will not let you weld.4 parts borax.i have plans to add a few other ingredients, if they work out I will share.good luck! And happy welding! Quote Edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 And for the new folks; here in the USA one can buy boric acid at the pharmacy for $$$ per ounce or buy Roach-pruf at the hardware store for $ per pound and RP is 98% Boric Acid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 And for the new folks; here in the USA one can buy boric acid at the pharmacy for $$$ per ounce or buy Roach-pruf at the hardware store for $ per pound and RP is 98% Boric Acid.Took the words out of my mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Straight boric acid and charcoal also works well. It is a bit runnier at welding heat though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 A number of the traditional, commercial, welding mixes included boric acid. Cherry heat if I recall had iron particles as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks for sharing this, teeny. I look forward to tryin it the next time I need to weld somethin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Cochran, you are more than welcome, good luck with it.Charlotte, I agree boric acid is in a lot of formulas. I have not seen any homemade ones that contain a source of carbon though. That is what is really helpful in this mix. Lowering the weld temp of the joint really seems to help with nice solid welds, especially when coke or good smithing coal is not readily available like here in Alaska. Edited August 25, 2015 by teenylittlemetalguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 Cochran, you are more than welcome, good luck with it.Charlotte, I agree boric acid is in a lot of formulas. I have not seen any homemade ones that contain a source of carbon though. That is what is really helpful in this mix. Lowering the weld temp of the joint really seems to help with nice solid welds, especially when coke or good smithing coal is not readily available like here in Alaska. The mention of traditional fluxes was just so the less experienced would fell comfortable with boric acid in a custom made flux. The addition of powdered carbon is very new to me. Although, on reflection, it seems to be an excellent innovation. I will be trying it next time I make up some flux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) Well for a *traditional* flux: clean quartz sand or powdered glass is mentioned for the forge welding of real wrought iron. I believe the use of Borax came in with the transition to using mild steel after the Bessemer/Kelly process was discovered. IIRC it's mentioned in "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson, during a discussion on working with the new material and the process changes needed. In one of the Foxfire books they mention using dirt daubers nests for flux. (really 20 mule team and roach prufe are *easy* to source and use here in the USA!) (Note that the wrought iron fluxes are VERY HARD TO REMOVE cold afterwards) Edited August 25, 2015 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The home brew flux I've been using before I discovered an economical commercial flux was: 1 pt. boric acid to 3-4 pts, borax and it works well though nothing compared to Tristan's "Alaska Flux."The commercial flux I found at the local "Wasilla" welding supply is "Petterson's #?" I can't recall the number designation but it's NOT the high temp flux. It's primarily anhydrous borax and boric acid with a couple proprietary ingredients, one to turn it blue I'm sure. Anyway, the stuff is on the shelf in Wasilla for $26.and change shipping included. Buying a 1lb. can of "forge" welding flux starts at $50.00+ Plus shipping. The Petterson's high temp flux contains iron powder but needs more heat to melt.As it stands Tristan's "Alaska Flux" beats the commercial fluxes hands down. The only change I'd make it to use anhydrous borax for it's superior wetting characteristics. One of our guys did a welding demo a few meetings ago with a head to head comparison showing that while laundry borax is boiling out the water content the anhydrous is coating (wetting) the steel. Convinced me in one.Making 20 Mule team into anhydrous borax is pretty labor intensive, it's easy to drive out the water, "Hygroscopic moisture" cooks out at 230f but it glues the borax into a hard lump. It is NOT necessary to melt the borax to make it anhydrous but driving off the hygroscopic moisture causes it's own issues. I've given it a try and it still requires a mortar and pestle to reduce the anhydrous lumps to usable powder.However, a rock tumbler and ball bearings would make an outstanding ball mill to powder the anhydrous, charcoal and mix all the ingredients as well as possible. I mean a commercial grade product. Hmmmm. Another tool to add to the garage sale list. My list now includes: smithing tools and equipment, ball pein hammers, spinning gear for Deb and now a rock tumbler. Cool.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 are the proportions for your flux by weight or by volume Teenyjust wondering as charcoal is so light Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remist17 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 I am reading many posts and there seems to be mix emotions on forge flux and what ingredients make it up. I have looked on several blacksmith supply places and they sell a verity of flux material. I would like to buy my first set to see how the “professional” ones look, react to the steel. Then I will try and mix my own. My question to the group is what type do I need? I would like to weld 1084 into RRspikes to make hatchets. Here are the options.Forge Borax, 1lb, $10.95EZ- Weld Compound- 1lb- low heat for tool steel, plow open hearth and Bessemer steel at low temps. Contains 40% metal. $10.95Cherry heat welding compound – 5 lb can, low heat for tool steel, plow open hearth and Bessemer steel at low temps. Contains 40% metal. $50There are also several liquid types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Twenty Mule team will work adequately for you project. There are discussions in Alchemy section which cover forge flux in exhaustive detail including a recent one for a home brew flux that I plan on trying the next time I make up a batch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remist17 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Understood and thank you. I wanted to buy a made up batch to see how it is suppose to work before I start mixing my own. Thank you for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 So what you mean is that you want to go see someone use it who knows how it's supposed to be used to see how it's supposed to work. I can buy the same materials for dinner as a cordon bleu chef but I guarantee it that mine will end up a lot different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 What Thomas said. With a little experience all the products you've listed work fine. I've been replacing my home brew 1pt. Boric acid to 3-4 pts laundry borax with Petterson's blue from the local welding supply. My next experiment will be with Tristan's "Alaska flux" but I'm just going to add some charcoal to the Petterson's.I've done no-flux welds in my propane forge on a lark so to speak AFTER I got a weld by accident.What you really need is a little experience welding so you can judge yourself. Welding is often a first session exercise I show students as a confidence builder. It's about proper procedure more than a specific product. An experienced blacksmith can show you in minutes and may even have more than one kind of flux you can try.Seriously, there's more mystique to forge welding than actual difficulty. If you lived within visiting distance I'd show you how faster than it took to write our posts. It is NOT hard.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Blade welds? Fluxes without metal particles are preferable, so the forge borax would be great. It is also not too pricey. For general welds, like drop tong welds, the metal bearing ones like ez weld are supposed to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Ok I give up I'm forbidden, grrrrrrrrrrr.I can write forbidden but not post anything else? Edited August 28, 2015 by Rashelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Yeah and I was just forbidden my response to your post. Grrrrr.Maybe edit.Okaaayyy. Now I'll try editing my edit. I've been writing a message then exiting the thread to come back and click in the text box where my message was saved and I submit it. It works reasonably well, unlike IPS SOT WARE.Frosty The Lucky. Edited August 28, 2015 by Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Thisis nuts I'm forbidden to reply to your reply to my reply but can post this.Can't edit either.Like it was said above go to an experienced forge welder and let them show you how. Use what you learn on then branch out after gaining enough experience to tell what is different. When first learning forge welding do destruction tests. At the school I instruct at due to summer being over my class size went to only 5 students for today and tomorrow. Amongst those five are 3 10 year olds. Today I brought in a portable coal forge, demoe'd forge welding a historically accurate miniature trade axe. Then had my assistant repeat the process for his first weld, followed by ALL of the students. Only one didn't do the complete forge weld. I stepped in and finished it as he was afraid of the heat. It comes down to learning it right. Nothing else magical about it. That amounted to 7 successful forge welds straight in a comtaminated fire that wasn't cleaned out. Someone in the past mixed bituminous and anthracite with coke and charcoal. With bits and pieces of wood, metal, and other contaminants thrown in. I can write inane comments but can't finish my reply. Those kids were at day 4 of blacksmithing. It's more important to learn how to forge weld then what flux or lack of flux. Edited August 28, 2015 by Rashelle forbidden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Can't IM or chat to finish reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 are the proportions for your flux by weight or by volume Teenyjust wondering as charcoal is so light sorry for the late reply, my post got mved and I coul not find it.i measured by volume, that charcoal is super light.in making this I also had good luck just using the boric acid and charcoal, but it was real runny.thank you all for the nice comments. Would love to hear of anyone else's additions or changes they preferred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Have you tried graphite instead of the powdered charcoal?Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Have you tried graphite instead of the powdered charcoal?AlanI have not tried graphite, I doubt it would be any less useful I just had good charcoal available only a tiny amount of graphite.i was thinking about adding silica sand to the mix but have not yet. We tried it out at a meeting and it was like water when used straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I still have a biscuit tin full of silver sand from when I first started. I haven't opened the tin for forty years...must see if there is any still in there or whether it has drifted away!If I used flux it tended to be borax. I did try a proprietary flux that Bob Bergman sent me. That had iron filings in it. I think it was EZ weld or similar. I haven't seen the tin for a year or two.Your flux enabling you to weld 1/16" straps sounds amazing.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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