Forge weld flux

[teenylittlemetalguy]

I still have a biscuit tin full of silver sand from when I first started. I haven't opened the tin for forty years...must see if there is any still in there or whether it has drifted away!

If I used flux it tended to be borax. I did try a proprietary flux that Bob Bergman sent me. That had iron filings in it. I think it was EZ weld or similar. I haven't seen the tin for a year or two.

Your flux enabling you to weld 1/16" straps sounds amazing.

Alan

thanks Alan, I was floored when I managed it. to be fair i did move my anvil right next to the forge and worked faster than I ever had, but I knew with the first blow that it worked. 

[ThomasPowers]

Would think sand would promote inclusions.  It was used for Wrought iron which is generally welded at a "snowball heat"  when the sand/glass is fairly runny. It's fairly sludgy at lower heats like is used for modern high carbon steels.  Note that SiO2 isn't real active even when hot it's more of a "protective cover" rather than a clean the joint.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

Would think sand would promote inclusions.  It was used for Wrought iron which is generally welded at a "snowball heat"  when the sand/glass is fairly runny. It's fairly sludgy at lower heats like is used for modern high carbon steels.  Note that SiO2 isn't real active even when hot it's more of a "protective cover" rather than a clean the joint.

yeah it is likely not ideal but worth playing with. I like to have a back up in mind if I suddenly couldn't get boric acid any more. (we have a hard time getting ferric chloride here anymore so it wouldn't surprise me if other things get scarce as well.)

the cleaning power combined with low toxicity of both Boric acid and Borax is what I think makes it so popular.

[Frosty]

If I recall correctly we tried fluxing with sand to see if we could get a more WI type material as well as use it for flux. Of course I might be remembering a housewarming party in 1974 too.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Alan Evans]

I seem to remember hearing that the great Zanny would put a block for an anvil right beside the fire, actually in the hearth when he was welding up his carnation stems and leaves.

Zanny was a renowned instructor with the Rural Industries Bureau in the fifties and sixties…it is probably his hands you see in the COSIRA books…he was famous for his superb carnations, vine and grape sprays and oak leaves and acorns. Incredibly clean and delicate work. Grinling Gibbons in metal.

Alan

[yahoo2]

the picture shows a stand for holding hex shaft that was made during a forging demo. The steel is 1045 and was welded with sand only, as a matter of fact, apart from the hot cutting everything you see was done in the one very swift unspectacular and relatively cool heat. It was a sobering lesson in efficiency from a retired professional.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

I seem to remember hearing that the great Zanny would put a block for an anvil right beside the fire, actually in the hearth when he was welding up his carnation stems and leaves.

Zanny was a renowned instructor with the Rural Industries Bureau in the fifties and sixties…it is probably his hands you see in the COSIRA books…he was famous for his superb carnations, vine and grape sprays and oak leaves and acorns. Incredibly clean and delicate work. Grinling Gibbons in metal.

Alan

I had seen smiths using coal make welds right on the hearth for small stuff. That is what got me thinking of reducing the distance. But I like the sound of this Zanny guy. Thanks.

[gote]

I rarely forge weld much so I should keep my mouth shut but I cannot help myself.

I was stupid enough not to ask for the formula we used in Rothenburg. It was quite blackish and sparks were flying in all directions and welding was easy.

I think that it is a good idea to use carbon in the mix. I assume it would take care of some of the oxygen.

Göte

 

[gote]

Dale I use  twenty mule team straight from the box....I used it for years welding horseshoes and then and now use it for pattern welded billets...for knives and ornamental items. .That reflects my shop rules,.,your shop rules may differ in any manner you wish..and your sources may be from wherever you like...i havel earned long ago and get updates often that some sources are better than others...R#Ecentlly there was a data sheet from a steel comppany that makes rr spikes on here and it showed no caerbon content4 at all,,,but it did show a C02 content, I wouild not likely ever read anything from that company again as I found it unusable. Message here is build your own trust in wot folks say in here and those sources you obtain data from.

This is common chemistry practice as opposed to metallurgist's practice. The chemical analysis methods give everything as oxides. So now the problem is: Did they really mean CO2? in which case one can recalculate or is it a typo for C. I agree it is stupid. Since we do not know what they meant,  the info is useless.

 

[jcornell]

I mixed up some Alaska flux yesterday and tried it today.  It seems to work well - I was welding a steel file into a railroad spike knife.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

I mixed up some Alaska flux yesterday and tried it today.  It seems to work well - I was welding a steel file into a railroad spike knife.

glad you got a chance to use it. would love to see the knife when you get it done. 

 

[jcornell]

Well, the weld was very well prepared.  I'd annealed the file to cut it in half, and I split the spike lengthwise.  Spike and file were both pickled in vinegar to clean any and all scale, along with a good wire brushing.  File and spike were fit together and then the joint was coated with WD-40.  WD-40 soaked weld joint was placed into a hot forge, and then when up to temperature, I sprinkled the Alaska Flux in place.  So, it was very clean and the joint couldn't oxidize while getting up to temp. 

That being said, it was somewhat surprising how quick I felt the surfaces bond when I started tapping it with a light hammer.

It's a good file, so it should make a decent blade.  My blade grinding skills (along with my heat treating skills) are not the best, but I'm getting better.

Thanks for sharing.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

Using it I have had surfaces stick without even using a hammer. of course you need to hammer it all tight and solid but you can feel an initial stick. I find it comforting knowing the surfaces want to go together instead of fighting me.

I like your prep work. vinegar is under used in most shops. I keep a 5 gal pail of it handy myself. I have not tried the wd40 trick I will give it a whirl.   

[jcornell]

The five gallons of vinegar gives me something to aspire to - I pour the vinegar into a one gallon ziplock bag and then suck the remaining air out of the bag, putting the bag with vinegar and steel onto a shelf for the vinegar to do its anti-scale magic.

The WD-40 is used under the notion that it will burn off and leave a layer of soot on the steel, protecting it from scale producing oxidation.  

For charcoal I went to the pet store and purchased a big cardboard carton (half gallon size).  Borax and charcoal both went (separately) into an old coffee grinder that's now dedicated to grinding non-food items.  The black coffee grinder is for flux stuff, the white coffee grinder is for spices and coffee beans.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

the vinegar was cheap at costco.$2 a gallon and I don't have to mess around with a bunch of small different shape containers again after filling up a pail. I was planning on comparing activated charcoal like you have and regular hardwood lump like I have.

bet the grinder works well. I have wanted to build a small ball mill for years now then I could do a lifetime supply in one batch... Heh heh....

[jcornell]

Well, you were an inspiration - I bought two boxes (2 gal each) of white vinegar at Sams Club.  A small kitty litter bucket holds about three gallons (max) I have two gallons in it right now.  I've been using it to eat off scale.  It turns from clear to red/brown fairly quickly.  Is there a point when it has to be changed, or do you just keep adding vinegar?

[teenylittlemetalguy]

I am so glad!  It does turn color quickly. Seems to stay plenty strong for a long time, I have only ever added to it for a few years. It is fairly slow at my wintertime shop temps of around 45-55f. Summer temps of 60-70f really works faster so be careful in the summer there. Also be very careful about the fumes it you put a piece in hot. They are pretty irritating to the mucous membranes.

 

[jcornell]

 I haven't put in anything hot yet - but I have noticed that when I check things the next day that the vinegar is slowly bubbling, so I suspect that there's a lot of chemistry going on when there's scaled up steel in there.  Sticking my hand in the vat is interesting, especially if I have any cuts or scrapes on my hand.  I've got to come up with some sort of basket with a handle.

[JHCC]

On 8/25/2015 at 3:38 PM, Frosty said:

Making 20 Mule team into anhydrous borax is pretty labor intensive, it's easy to drive out the water, "Hygroscopic moisture" cooks out at 230f but it glues the borax into a hard lump. It is NOT necessary to melt the borax to make it anhydrous but driving off the hygroscopic moisture causes it's own issues. I've given it a try and it still requires a mortar and pestle to reduce the anhydrous lumps to usable powder.

However, a rock tumbler and ball bearings would make an outstanding ball mill to powder the anhydrous, charcoal and mix all the ingredients as well as possible. I mean a commercial grade product. Hmmmm. Another tool to add to the garage sale list. My list now includes: smithing tools and equipment, ball pein hammers, spinning gear for Deb and now a rock tumbler.

We just had a productive discussion of baking borax in another thread.

[Frosty]

On 8/26/2016 at 7:08 AM, JHCC said:

We just had a productive discussion of baking borax in another thread.

J: if you'll read the time stamp you'll see this thread is better than a year old. I just repeated myself AGAIN in the discussion you link to. You wouldn't have had to ask the questions again had you read this one first.

No sweat, we've all done it.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[JHCC]

I know all that, Frosty. This wasn't for my benefit or yours, but as a guidepost left for explorers yet to come!

On 8/27/2016 at 7:17 PM, Frosty said:

J: if you'll read the time stamp you'll see this thread is better than a year old. I just repeated myself AGAIN in the discussion you link to. You wouldn't have had to ask the questions again had you read this one first.

I know all that, Frosty. This wasn't for my benefit or yours, but as a guidepost left for explorers yet to come!

[Lou L]

I just tried a fluxless forge weld for practice on a piece of rebar today.  Failed miserably.  I kept the steel in the top of the fire well out of the air blast (side blast forge) and brought it to just sparking.  It stuck on the first go and seemed to work but fell apart on the third heat.  So close.  I'm going to keep at it until I get it.  Deep down I want to make it work without flux first.  I think I'm on a fool's errand....rebar, no flux, no experience with welding.  Good times.

[Frosty]

How clean were the joint surfaces? Shinier the better. Next time try keeping it lower in the fire, not deep but covered so outside air can't get on it.

I've never done a fluxless weld on purpose but I think you may need to spend more times resetting the weld before you start refining it. I'm just thinking out loud here I use flux, I LIKE flux. I like easy, the easier the better so I go out of my way to avoid doing things the hard way if possible.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frank Turley]

I've been around the block on this forge welding, so I'm offering a little info. "Soupy flux" can be a contaminant interfering with metal to metal contact when welding. That is why it is suggested to rap the piece(s) against the anvil or to shake them sharply in midair before hammering. It is also the reason that the faces of scarfs are rounding, If any "soup" remains, it'll get squeezed out from the mid point of tangency by hammering. I'll define what I call soup. When flux is applied to red hot iron, say borax, it melts and glazes the surface. If you're using hydrous borax, applying a little with a flux spoon is helpful and will minimize bubbling. Don't dip the pieces into a container of borax, or you'll get a ball of unmolten white flux surrounding the piece, and you're wasting flux and time. Don't overflux; just glaze the surface. When heating after the flux application, some already formed scale will melt within the coating, creating a compound, no longer straight borax. This is what I term "soup." It is molten, but the steel is not molten. You're doing a solid state weld. Wire brushing before flux application is often helpful.

So the flux glaze is an attempt to prevent new scale from forming, but it can also assume already formed scale, both of which are good things. However, you don't need it an instant before hammering. Our localism is "Shake your grahdoo," accent of the second syllable. My Texas students introduced me to the term which in Texas, means any ol' kind of crud or crap. Some Texan welders call welding spatter, grahdoo. I'm calling the "soup" grahdoo.

[Lou L]

On 8/28/2016 at 12:38 AM, Frosty said:

How clean were the joint surfaces? Shinier the better. Next time try keeping it lower in the fire, not deep but covered so outside air can't get on it.

I've never done a fluxless weld on purpose but I think you may need to spend more times resetting the weld before you start refining it. I'm just thinking out loud here I use flux, I LIKE flux. I like easy, the easier the better so I go out of my way to avoid doing things the hard way if possible

I fully intend to use flux because I like easy at least as much as you do.  Honestly, the main reason I tried it was simple curiosity combined with the fact that not one grocery store near me carries borax on their shelves.  Seriously, I've searched.  I actually have to order it on Amazon or something.  All that aside, thanks for the input.  I now know my mistake.  I most certainly didn't clean up the mill scale enough on the surfaces to be welded.  They weren't shiny.  I'll go back and try that.  I think I had the piece in a nice O2 free environment in the fire...but I'll play with that as well.

I'm a fool who has hitched the cart before the horse....here I am trying to forge weld meanwhile I can't make a serviceable pair of tongs to save my life.  This is how I do things I guess.  Taught myself to play guitar and learned how to play finger style...still don't know how to strum songs but I can pick out some complex tunes.