Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Chris The Curious said: Why, then, would the great and respected JPH recommend it as part of his Steel Glue Flux recipe???? I have read several threads that JPH (Jim Hrisoulas) has posted about his Steel Glue Flux. In every one he advises that it is (to paraphrase) nasty stuff and should only be used with proper PPE and plenty of ventilation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 "Nasty" and "toxic" are two different things to me, IFIC. Thanks for the clarification, Steve. I wonder if I just made his recipe without the fluorspar would it still be as effective for non-stainless steels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Chris: Jim does indeed warn about the fumes from his flux. When us old timers say something is NASTY we aren't talking about dirty diaper unpleasant, in the jargon NASTY is the upper end of the DANGEROUS curve. What makes typical spring stock hard to weld is the chrome in the alloy. Chrome oxidizes almost instantly on contact with air and chrome oxide is almost inert which is why it's used to protect alloys. It requires an aggressive flux to break down enough to make welding reasonably easy. Chrome is also VERY toxic when approaching welding temperature, darn near nasty. Never NEVER put chromed anything in the forge! My flux recipe is 3-4 pts borax to 1 pt. boric acid and Roachpruf is fine. I haven't made a batch in years, stopped using it as more hassle than it's worth. I buy welding flux at the local welding supply Petersons blue, the stuff without the iron powder in it. It works as well as any of the "REAL" forge welding fluxes I've tried. Best it's WAY cheaper, on the shelf in Wasilla Ak. $26 and change shipping included. Last time I price checked "REAL" forge welding flux shipping cost more. If you're going to make anhydrous borax use a silicone cookie sheet so you can just flex it and break the flux off. There's no need to melt it, just bringing it to 230 f will drive off the hygroscopic moisture but do it gradually so you don't boil the moisture and glue all the borax into brittle. Run it at say 150 - 170 f. for say 1/2 hr per 1/4" thickness. Then turn it up to 190 - 200 f for another 1/2 hr. per 1/4" and then to 212 f or so and finally 230-240 f for the time interval. The temp and time interval is a modification of ASTM method for driving off hygroscopic moisture in the soil's lab. An electric oven is a must or borax will absorb moisture from burning gas as fast as it's driven off. It'll be stuck together but it won't be like glass it'll be more like a sugar cube. No reason to melt it till you put it on your weld joint. If I make a batch I'm going to go borrow my little rock tumbler back, I'm too lazy to hand grind something if I have a power tool made for it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Thanks Frosty. Just finished sending you a PM about my already purchasing Anhydrous Borax and Boric Acid today. I watched Jennifer's video on driving the moisture off Borax and decided my time would be better spent elsewhere. There are just some things I don't care to mess with..........even if it saves a buck. I found the Anhydrous Borax for $6/lb delivered. As per Steve's recommendation, I won't be using that Nasty stuff. I'll do my best to see if I can forge weld this spring. If I can't, I'll just save it for punches and other things. I know it'll make good blacksmith knives, for sure. I've got a fairly large chunk of 4140 I can make a hammer head out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Jim may not have used the term "nasty" that's why I paraphrased it, to me in the forge/fire nasty is toxic/dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Okay, I get it.......got it...........understand what you mean. Forging is dangerous enough in itself..............don't want to make it any worse. So I'm not using it. Thanks. I won't argue with you more experienced guys.....................it's just not fruitful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Frosty said: If I make a batch I'm going to go borrow my little rock tumbler back, I'm too lazy to hand grind something if I have a power tool made for it. A yard sale or retired electric coffee grinder would probably work well. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Okay, question: I will yield to everyone's admonition of Fluorspar. But if I'm going to make JPH's Steel Glue, I still need to locate source for Ammoniac. (I find it in brick form, but I'm assuming powdered is what I need.) And I need a source for Powdered Iron Oxide. The recipe calls for "the real stuff, not concrete dye." Any ideas??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Got any really rusty metal you can scrape some off of? Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Powdered iron oxide comes in two forms. Black iron oxide, (Fe3O4), and red iron oxide, (Fe2O3). I assume that it is the more common red oxide. As Pnut suggested, you can scrape rusted iron. Or you can get some iron powder and place it in a bath of water with vinegar. Alternatively, it can be bought on the net. SLAG p.s. The iron powder in water plus vinegar will rust the iron very quickly. (I was not explicit enough, time for my third cup of coffee). Sal ammoniac is ammonium chloride, NH4Cl. I am not sure if it will work for your purposes, But vinegar is much cheaper. And it works, for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Not really, pnut, but wouldn't that be a terribly slow way to accumulate any usable volume? 2 minutes ago, SLAG said: Or you can get some iron powder and place it in a bath of water with vinegar. I'm not sure I understand what the outcome of this action would be????? Slag, everything I find on the internet indicates it's for dye-ing purposes. What about Ammoniac? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Chris The Curious said: a source for Powdered Iron Oxide You can get all that at most pottery supply stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Sal Ammoniac: Probably easiest to find in a block as it was sold that way for cleaning soldering iron tips. Mortar and pestilence time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 "Ammoniac" = Sal ammoniac = ammonium chloride and is commonly sold by the sack as sidewalk deicer. It's a salt that doesn't erode concrete nearly as quickly as sodium chloride (table salt). You get real winter so it should be available, call around or as a last resort call a chemical supply. Black iron oxide is a common pigment, call: art supply, paint supply, concrete supply, ceramic supply. Basically anybody who colors products and yes, iron oxide ocre, comes in many earth tones ranging from: straw yellow, tan, brown, red to black. Minoan wall art is almost all tones of ocre. A blender works better than a coffee grinder and can be had at yard, garage, etc. sales for under a $ fiver. I got the tumbler as a take it if you really want the ball peins and monkey wrench or leave it bundle. If you're really going to mix up a batch rather than drop $25 at a welding supply and don't really know what works, do it in batches table spoon to 1/4C max. Unless you're a super lucky guy you aren't going to get it right enough for a beginner welder's magic potion. Slow down Chris, there's really no rush here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Thanks, IFC, I know of a pottery makers supplier. Thanks, Thomas. I considered that...........just didn't want to put that much physical effort into it. I've got a bag of sidewalk de-icer, Frosty. Didn't know it was the same thing. I previously noted your welding supply flux suggestion................but I just feel like trying this out. I've got 6 pounds of Anhydrous Borax on the way, so I will be able to make quite a bit. Who knows, I might be able to make a bunch of it and use it as "pay it forward" fodder. I'm really in no rush, Frosty. Just trying to figure out where to get all this stuff. 14 minutes ago, Frosty said: Unless you're a super lucky guy you aren't going to get it right enough for a beginner welder's magic potion. If I mix the portions properly, why would I not get it "right enough"? Is there some trick or something? I have a Steel Glue recipe copied out of the flux thread. But I also have a copy of The Complete Bladesmith on the way, so I'll have the recipe straight from the author's "pen". This is all exciting to me. Learning a lot of things I'd never known before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 That's right enough to be magic potion flux. I've used a number of commercial forge welding fluxes and they all vary. I've never dug out the triple beam balance for consistency but no two batches of my favored home brew fluxes worked the same. Give plain anhydrous borax a try it works a treat as a stand alone. Boric acid is there because it has a lower melting temp and wets the joint sooner preventing oxidization. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Oops!................my ice-melter is Calcium Chloride. Not the same as Ammonium Chloride. So guess I'm still on the hunt. I've a very accurate triple beam scale that goes to 1600 grams...............it was part of my Dad's jewelry equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Ammonium chloride is available through Walmart. Buy online pick it up in store. It's $8.99/lb. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 18 hours ago, Chris The Curious said: Oops!................my ice-melter is Calcium Chloride. You beat me to it Chris. MY BAD the concrete "friendlier" deicer I was thinking of is "Calcium Chloride" NOT Ammonium Chloride. I got my wires crossed. . . Again. <sigh> On the other hand anybody tries calcium chloride in flux, let us know the results. My slip of mental filing might turn out to be a "Happy Accident." Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 They use ammonium chloride in fertilizer. It's also used for preventing the build up of calculi in the urinary tract of male goats. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 1 hour ago, pnut said: Ammonium chloride is available through Walmart. Buy online pick it up in store. It's $8.99/lb. Pnut Thanks, Pnut..............I did that last night. Only they won't ship it to the store. That's okay, I'll have it in 10 days. 2 minutes ago, pnut said: They use ammonium chloride in fertilizer. It's also used for preventing the build up of calculi in the urinary tract of male goats. Pnut Yup, I know about the fertilizer thing..............just didn't want to have to sit and pick the ammoniun chloride out of the rest of the stuff. Don't have any Goats, so no help there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 Nothing left but waiting then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted August 12, 2019 Share Posted August 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Frosty said: On the other hand anybody tries calcium chloride in flux, let us know the results. My slip of mental filing might turn out to be a "Happy Accident." Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, I went and looked at Calcium Chloride to see if it was a reasonable thing to try for flux or not. Learned a ton, apparently it is used as a flux for Titanium production... Makes one think... But apparently it can't be used in reinforced concrete as it corrodes iron, so I would guess probably not the best idea for welding steel. I did like to see it is used for making activated charcoal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 Well, I've hit a snag. I contacted a pottery shop in Oklahoma City. They said they have red iron oxide. When I got there, I was careful to clarify I was looking for the "real" stuff..............not just the dye used in tinting concrete. Hmmmmmmmmm!? was the response. So I tried to explain what I'd read in the recipe. The owner called her supplier and was told her red iron oxide would work. But she wasn't sure. Called another supplier and explained this was to be a component in a forge welding flux and the recipe called for "real" iron oxide. He asked if she meant "natural". Neither one of us knew for sure what to say. So I'm back home now, still trying to figure out what it is I'm looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAG Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 CTC, You can get the real red iron oxide through a chemical supply house. BUT, the price will probably be expensive. It will be of a quality, (chemical refiness), that is not necessary for your purposes. You might want to try buying the finest steel wool that you can get. (xxx, or xxxx?). Treat it in a bath of warm of vinegar (a.k.a. acetic acid), for a while, dry it and then crush it. The resultant powder should, then, be placed in a fresh bath of hot acetic. and allowed to cook. Harvest the rust, neutralize it with baking soda, wash it and let dry. The powder can then be crushed. * This procedure sounds way more complicated than it is in practice. Alternatively continue searching for a source it. Especially if time and expense is not a problem. Cheers, SLAG. *use a mask during the crushing step, so you do not inhale the dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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