Newb Setup for Wood Tool Making

[JHCC]

I think the original truck beds were cold-rolled steel in either 18ga or 16 ga, depending on which manufacturer they'd subbed the parts out to.

Hmm...now I'm wondering if there might be a market for bowls forged from Willys truck beds. Or armor.

[Frosty]

It had to be that thick to stamp without tearing. Modern deep draw steels are self lubricating and very malleable so they can use silly thin stock to save weight and die wear. 

Now I have to admit I don't know much of anything about what steel alloy they're making auto bodies from today. A little time searching and reading loaded me up with more abbreviations than I'll ever remember. My one take away was 20-22 ga. though some makers use thinner for body steel. 

Unibody construction seems to require AHSS, Advanced High Strength Steel so they aren't mild steel and . . . 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

On the other hand, I learned today that apparently Willys subbed their panels out to refrigerator manufacturers.

No wonder they're so cool.

[Frosty]

And you thought "Chilly Willy's" was just a saying.

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

I'm anxious to see his shop. He said he doesn't use bondo on bodywork. The cab needs a little tlc as well. The bed, tho is a total makeover,, oops,, complete from the ground up do-over. 

[ThomasPowers]

General use of WI pretty much died out during the Great Depression with some specialty use  making it into the 1960's.  As WI tends to be anisotropic it would be a pain to use in die struck sheet metal.  I do have some Byers bidirectional rolled plate that was hot rolled twice at directions 90 deg to each other---when it breaks instead of a green stick fracture you get "platy" tears.

[Kooky]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:43 AM, anvil said:

Good point.  Hope I'm wrong. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but I thought there was a bit too much subtle personal politics in too many of his posts, thus my remark.

It's easy to be disrespectful behind the safety veil of the internet, I am progressing just fine on my own. Let me know where you live near, maybe we can meet up for a cup of coffee.

Bringing anyone else down or judging them over things that don't physically harm you is just a sign of insecurity. [political and religious content deleted]

Nothing that comes from people I don't respect can affect me at all. I find these remarks amusing at best, tiresome at worst, like finding the perfect position in bed (the initial onset of help) but having to get back up to take a pee (the digression to personal annoyance and judgment).

If you don't like it, stay away. I can't make you, [political content deleted] but I request if you don't have anything useful or kind to say, just mind your beeswax. Plenty of posts here for you to creep.

Cheers.

[George N. M.]

Dear Kooky,

Just a passing comment but I have found the IFI folk to be some of the friendliest and most generous and sympathetic people I have encountered in a long, interesting and varied life.  Throughout this thread I have not seen anything seriously disresoectful, patronizing, unkind, or rude.  Sometimes we all may phrase something inartfully with no malice intended but I have seen nothing mean.  If I have missed something offensive please point it out to me.

That said, some of us have been around this bad old world a lot longer than you have and if we see or hear something that we know will lead someone down a dead end or be outright dangerous we can be very firm in trying to warn someone off something that will waste their time and money and risk their life or health.  No apologies for that.

I honestly do not see what you have taken offense at or why you may be offended.  You seem to have painted everyone who has replied to your original and subsequent posts as some species of troll who are looking for someone to bring down.  I have seen much more helpful suggetions and guidance than anything else.  I would bet a dollar or a beverage that there are no "creepers" here.

And while discussions of religion are prohibited here by the terms of service I would bet that there is a higher percentage of practicing Christians or otherwise spiritual folk here than you will find on most places.

Good luck and fair winds to you on your journey.  If you feel that you don't fit in with this group, well, so be it.  Our collective personality may strike sparks off of your individual personality.  That is the way of the world.  It may be us or, equally oprobable, it may be you.

Vaya con Dios.

"By hammer and hand all arets do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:33 AM, anvil said:

Speaking of truck beds, I'm having a guy build me a new bed for my '47 Willys PU. I'm pretty sure the old bed is wrought iron. I wonder how long it will take me to turn a '47 willys bed into bar stock.  

When you get going on the restoration, why not post the event in this thread.

 

[anvil]

I'll do that. Its well under way. 

 

Thanks, George.  

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

[political content removed]

anyone you want to ask will tell you that I’m extremely laid back an much prefer to crack jokes then to “oppress” anyone or anything,

My previous statement to you was not intended to be mean, rude or otherwise, 

i have personally seen more times then I care to remember 

people that are under trained, under prepared, under experienced and Under equipped go off half cocked and try to start a business which crashes an burns in less then a year…

and in almost every case ended up in a much worse position then they were to start with, 

i support and respect anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur and wish them the best,

From reading your comments so far I can see you have a wonderful dream! but are not prepared for success in my humble opinion,

backsmithing, wood carving, painting, writing, playing a sport, playing an instrument ect.. are all are very fun but very few people that do these things actually support their family doing so, and those that do normally have years of extensive experience and training or apprenticeship,

in my personal business I’m constantly having to reinvest in tools, machines, manuals an more training to stay afloat and competitive in the market, an keep in compliance with laws,

when I need a machine I don’t have time to waste on finding used wore equipment that’s gonna break down in six months, or cheap subpar tools that take more time to make work then if I had just spent the money an bought what I needed,

I don’t have time to waste on making something or making something else work… I order what I need then I figure it into my labor rates and write it off on taxes.

blacksmithing is different in that you can make most all of your hand tools and can get away with using old machinery, 

the difference is I have several thousand customers a year pass through my shop needing parts or services 

I don’t believe that many if any blacksmithing or woodworking shops have that amount clientele passing through their doors unless they are a shop at a tourist destination,

the blacksmiths I know of that make their living smithing have the equipment an the knowledge to do so, and they gained it all over decades, and a lot of them also make money teaching 

I just don’t see that there’s a massive market for handmade goods it’s more of a niche market, 

we all can’t sell fire pokers and an custom woodwork on Etsy for a living,

im not trying to pick on you and your dream

surely you can see where logic says you’d be much better off using your wood working and smithing as a side hustle to bring in extra cash an focus a larger portion of your time finding something more lucrative to better your position for yourself and your family, 

I dunno, maybe I’m wrong, maybe others on here disagree with my opinion,

I’m just a stranger on the internet that you’ll probably never have an interaction with in person, you can listen to my two cents or ignore it,

Edited July 13, 2022 by Mod34
Political content removed

[George N. M.]

TW, you re one of the few folk here who support themselves with your skill and craft at small engine repair.  I have  question:  How much of your time is taken up by "business" type things like bookkeeping, ordering, paying bills, dealing with employee paperwork (when you have 1 or more employees), taxes, etc. versus actually working on engines?  50/50? 30/70?

It has been my experience that many folk who start a business have no idea how much of their time will be taken up by the "business" side of the operation and it turns out that they are not very good at it and end up either ignoring it or not doing it well and that is a major contributor to small business failures.

Thanks.

GNM

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Employees?!?!?  
I’ve heard of the rare an elusive critters known as employees,

if you happen to catch one, stuff em in a box an mail em to me!!! I’ll pay top dollar! Bahaha 

seriously though it’s been over a year now since the last one quit, they never last more then a couple months if I’m lucky, 

the record to date is 3 hrs before quitting 

Taxes is a wonderful time consuming tire fire, 

i literally gotta keep every receipt from a single can of carb cleaner to a thousand dollar parts order to make it through taxes,

parts research and ordering has been a holy terror since covid hit

Overall it varies but to answer your question sometimes it takes just as much time to locate a part an messin with paperwork as it does to actually fix the machine,

I had the mechanical training and background but it was like getting hit by a freight train when it came time for learning the business side,

it’s a serious learning curve, and I still learn more all the time, I had no previous business experience and I didn’t know about the small business administration when I started,

im one of the lucky ones, if the economy is good people buy new machines and pay to have them serviced, if the economy is bad, people can’t afford to buy new so they fix their old stuff

I watched other businesses go up in flames when covid hit, I watched people cash in their retirements to try An keep their dreams afloat, an even the PPE loans weren’t enough to save them…

I did it all the hard and bull headed way, I built from the ground up, I did without, I made do with what I had and slowly built up, and I don’t recommend anyone ever follow in my footsteps that’s why both my previous comments are toned against it, I have extensive knowledge of how much it is a bad idea

when I first opened I went to the bank and asked for a thousand dollar loan to help me make it through till cash flow started… I was laughed outta the bank… I’ll never forget that… I was humiliated, angry, scared, and starting to doubt myself, 

Since that day I refused to ever ask them for money again, and saved every dime I made to build up to where I could afford to buy everything in cash an keep enough aside for emergency’s,

That first year I starved, I ate ramen noodles, I was late paying the bills…

I traded every last blacksmith tool I had collected for years for a pickup truck with a Tommy lift so I could load and unload heavy machinery, I sold almost everything I owned that I couldn’t use to make money in the shop…

I already owned all the basic hand tools I needed but hardly any of the specialty tools, my fist air compressor I drug out of a salvage yard and got it half running again, i limped along with it til I could actually afford to buy a multi thousand dollar industrial one, that poor thing was wore out when I got it,

It was only by the grace of god I made it through that first year…

I didn’t ever plan on being a privately employed business owner… this wasn’t ever a dream of mine,

I did it out of necessity and survival… in the months leading up to my previous jobs closing I applied to jobs all over creation, I dressed up nice and went to interview after interview…. 

even with my military background, some college an a boat load of certificates I lost out on every job to someone else who had just one more thing under their belt…

In the last week of work before we closed out of pure desperation I spent what money I had to buy out all the fast moving parts I knew I could turnaround quickly an make some labor doin so, 

it took years to get on top again, and that was with starting out with a huge customer base from my previous job, and years of experience, and having a run down old building to work out of,

one wrong financial move or one physical accident and I would have lost my home an been living under a bridge,

I only made it by shear dumb luck and working myself to death 7 days a week…

I don’t want to see anyone anywhere ever have to live through that and have to make the decisions I’ve had to make, it’s not fun it’s not smart, an quite frankly I’d have probably been way better off goin back to college an getting a degree in something useful,

After running my own shop I have a gained a greater understanding and respect for my previous employers who built their businesses from the ground up,

on a ironic side note, since I now have a stable business and am doin well, I have been approached by other businesses several times askin if I’d be willing to close up shop an go work for them…. All I can think is… Where were you back then?!?! Lol

Mr Kooky,

it’s your life do as you please, far be it for me to tell you or anyone else how to live it, 

i apologize y’all, I got way to fired up over this thread, I’ve went way off topic, I’ll quit my caterwauling now

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

TW, what’s your address? I am in possession in a slightly used 26 year old Step son….

I won’t even ship him COD!

required disclaimers, absolutely no returns on defective merchandise! 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Lol, Charles, 

the sad thing is I hear that exact same offer more then you wanna know

[Charles R. Stevens]

He is 26 going on 15, lol. Hard worker if one can keep his clean!

[Frosty]

That wasn't caterwauling Billy, that was telling it like it is.

When Dad opened "George Frost Metal spinning" we stopped seeing him before my bedtime and he was gone before breakfast. We had economy Christmas, birthdays, etc. for a few years. Shannon and I were too young to realize we were living on the edge but Dad working 7/16 meant we never got to see him except when he was so tired we didn't do anything.

After school, sometimes I'd go to the shop with Mother to take Dad his dinner. She made TV dinners from left overs in the old school aluminum TV dinner trays and froze them, we ate a lot of home made TV dinners. We'd take it in say hi if he could take a break put his dinner in the electric skillet in the office and turn it on. About dinner time Mother would call and remind him to eat. That way we ate dinner together. . . IF he stopped long enough to eat. 

We used to take a 2 week vacation every summer, Dad was a scout master in my Cub and Boy Scouts troops, Mother and Shannon did girl stuff, Bluebirds, Girl scouts, etc. We went rock hounding, camping, fishing, etc. on weekends, good family times. Then he opened "George Frost Metal Spinning."

He always had a spinning shop in the garage, basement, etc. and I worked for wages, WAY better than an allowance. Then he opened "George Frost Metal Spinning." He still worked in the shop but it wasn't extra money it was survival money. When the business expanded enough he hired his 3rd. employee Osha and the insurance company noticed I was working there and that was it for me even being legal to set foot in the shop. I was allowed in the offices but nowhere in the shop. 

Things eased up on him after something like 10 years of 7/16s, he had 5 spinners and a machinist working for him and was down to 6/10s. Mother was doing the books and working a full time job, her Mother "Mom" lived with us and took care of the home. Dad took on a partner and things started really looking up, we bought a new place, had a swimming pool built, got a couple horses and started taking yearly vacations again. 

Then it turned out the partner wasn't such a good idea, Dad didn't watch the books like he should have and the IRS closed the shop down, auctioned everything and happily enough a little was left for our bank account.

Dad went to work for others and we saw him every night, on weekends, took vacations, had spending money, horses, etc. Best of all the work load wasn't killing Dad.

I feel what you're saying Billy, believe me I do. I promised myself I'd NEVER own my own business. Maybe accept enough to make a self paying hobby but that's it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Jobtiel1]

That is a good story Frosty, it really puts the dream of being self employed in a little bit of perspective. Thank you for sharing it.

You too Billie, I can't imagine the kinds of stress you have when living through that situation.

And considering that it is probably more difficult to make a living wage blacksmithing, you really gotta work hard to make that work. A self paying hobby is what I've tried out on Etsy as well. However, I was working more on stuff for customers than my own projects that I wanted to do. And that really took the enjoyment of spending your free time forging out of it as well. I quit doing that, now I only make stuff for friends and family as gifts or when they ask me for something.

~Jobtiel

[George N. M.]

Two aphorisms about running your own business:  "You will always work harder and longer for yourself than you ever would for any boss."  and "If you work for yourself you wake up every morning unemployed."

Running your own business can be emotionally and financially satisfying but it takes a LOT of work and stress.  And, unfortunately, blacksmithing is not a skill that is in as much demand as, say, plumbing, construction trades, medicine, truck driving, law, etc..  There is always room at the top, e.g. Alexandr, but few have that level of skill.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

There's not always room at the top, either. I think also of someone like Carl Close, who's spent years establishing his reputation and network of contacts for architectural ironwork (both new and restoration) in the Boston area. There's certainly a market there for his products and services (both economically and aesthetically), but could that market sustain two of him? I honestly don't know.

[Scott NC]

 I tried running my fathers business after he passed and working a full time job at the same time.  It was a recipe for failure.  I lost both.  I have a lot of respect for the small shops and those that run them.  And I show it by patronizing them.

[anvil]

Well, I did the deed and did become a full time working smith. I encountered all that has been said here, and then some. Including the nefarious "Partner" debacle. We were partners on a log house, not my iron. Alas, i even survived the killer Divorce.   I did it on the eastern slope of the Rockies between Denver and Pueblo. It is not an easy pathway and the attrition is high. I m made the right choice for me.

When i started full time in '78 there was one or two other part timers. One left quickly and the other got into metal sculpture. When I left in '08 there were a half dozen or so full time and another dozen serious part timer/hobby types doing smithing as all or a significant part of their work. I'd like to say I created this movement, but I didn't. It would have happened anyway. But I did pave the way. I spent a lot of time beating on doors with my samples, Interior decorators, builders, designers, cabinet and door guys,,, spreading the word about forged iron.  

JHCC, Francis Whitaker said at many of his demos that "There is plenty of room at the top". I found it to be absolutely true and believe its true today.  But the attrition is high.  You have to be able to get your work out there and have the skills to back it up. When that happens, you will be wishing for competition to help ease the demand,,,,   

 

 

[Frosty]

How many horses do you think you shod while getting established as a blacksmith, anvil? 

I didn't tell what I remember of "George Frost Metalspinning" and the toll to discourage folks from becoming a self employed craftsman(woman). I wish everybody success but I'd like to see them have as good a chance as possible. Just being one of the best around isn't enough, Dad was, he pulled off the "impossible" routinely. Having utter devotion to making it and sweating your heart out 7/16+ isn't enough. You have to do what Mother and Dad didn't pull off well enough. 

You have to have the right education to run a business, you have to place your trust contracts and more than everything else a plan. There's a HUGE difference between an idea or lifelong dream and a plan. Ideas and dreams happen in your heart and mind. Plans are MADE and like a bridge if not made carefully and maintained, they fall apart at the worst possible time. A good plan isn't a static thing, it must be flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances but strong enough to keep you on track. 

Just look at Rockstar's most recent post and what not planning for delays can cost. If your plan and business isn't flexible enough to absorb these inescapable problems it'll dissolve into memory with your liquidation auction. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[anvil]

I started making money as a farrier around '65 or so. I have always believed a Farrier is a prime contemporary member of the Blacksmiths craft, weather he shew's hot or cold. So I consider I've always been a "Blacksmith". In the beginning, my shop specialty was as a Farrier. Around '78 I changed my shop direction to architectural smithing. My goal has always been the latter. I felt that the time to make this change depended on how long it took to pay off my ground, thus removing shop rent from the business equation.  Lol, I look at those beginning years as my self imposed apprenticeship. There was a master who knew nothing, a journeyman who was lazy and the lowly apprentice kept it running as a farrier,,, and I was all 3.  I chose to start as a farrier for two reasons, I love horses with a passion and for what it would teach me concerning working on an anvil the proverbial 24/7/365. It taught me things I didn't even realize until a few years as a smith. It taught me how to file(rasp), How to move iron over the horn and to level a shoe on the flat of my anvil. It taught me to see a pattern by eye and to be able to move iron without using a jig to match that shape. Just a few things a farrier b rings into a smithing business.

As far as business education, I have absolutely zero formal training, yet I have been successfully self employed all my life,,, since the Service. 

There are some great people here who share their knowledge on successful business practices. All excellent advice, but, alas, it rarely applies to any craftsman or artist taken right out of the box so to say. In fact if attempted this way will tend to two results,, failure, or a business where fab work is primary and forged is secondary. Not that this is wrong, Its a great and satisfying pathway as an owner or an employee, but it can be a deadly trap if "Traditional Smithing" is your goal. The economics model that is represented by business schools and practices in our day and age are not set up for Craftsman. They are set up for the Trades. As an example, Try going to a bank for a loan, a primary reason for a good business plan, and asking for a loan as a craftsman. Tell them you need ground for a shop, schooling, and tools. Let them know a realistic timeline for success, say 7 years apprenticeship, 3-5 years as a journeyman, then you will be able to pay back the loan.  Bam,,, be quick and the door wont bruise your backside. Now try it as a welder, same needs, differen't timeframe for success say a very possible 6 months schooling and a 3 year payback total. Who's more likely, generally speaking, to get a loan? Pretty simplistic example, but its meant to point out the first and very major catch 22 you MUST overcome. And its only the first. Another is pricing. How many times do you hear on this site and others "Charge for your time, don;t short yourself. Why look what a welder makes!" Good advice and a prime reason for failure. These folks seem to never equate your skill level as a craftsman with a fair wage. 7 years to learn the basics is pretty real. So why would anyone think that during your first 1-3 years, you should make the same wage as anyone in the trades where learning time is far less? If you really think you ought to make $50-$70 an hour, then dream on. There are people in our blacksmith world, including here, that have decades in the craft that can't even make a right angle bend or apply a collar quickly and efficiently that actually works without a "lil tack" or being able to do mortise and tenons second nature no matter how much time spent in this great craft.

Please don't assume that I have any negative about anyone's choice on how to enjoy our craft, Thats just not so. I do, without a doubt, have a problem with those who say "You can't, in this day and age, be a successful smith/craftsman". I would love to see those with business experience think out of the conventional business model box and specifically apply that knowledge and experience to craftsman related business practices and models. Its never wrong to point out the "boogers and traps" for failure, but I rarely to never hear of reasons to go for it.  Thats needed too.

[Frosty]

I wasn't distinguishing farrier from blacksmith, it's a specialization no question. As a business though farriers have a much better existing market than an architectural, etc. blacksmith. It may be a niche but it's a darned wide niche. The farrier's entire operation can fit in a pickup truck or modest sized SUV, especially if you burn propane. 

It's a good living while you learn and develop a market for a business at the anvil that doesn't involve bowing under horses. Knees and backs tend to retire farriers far more frequently than breaking into an artistic blacksmith business. No?

It's wasn't a challenge it was an honest question, I don't know how long courses in the farrier's craft are but they exist, it's not a simple trade and involves much. Then you have the time practicing to develop into a good, hopefully superior farrier. You CAN however realize an income almost from the beginning. 

There aren't many support trades that marries so well with the goal trade as farrier to artist blacksmith.

Unfortunately getting financing to learn a art/craft isn't going to happen outside a guild setting, the ROE is too far down the road while interest builds. Nobody with fiduciary responsibilities to  investors is going to lend money when compound interest will mean the debt will be greater than a career's possible earnings before the first payment. That is just totally unrealistic to expect.

Student loans are a perfect example, (No comment) mandated easy loans for education with encouragement from institutes of education and lenders. Kids are half a million in debt with a maybe marketable degree and no job accruing interest and penalties. When they default, go bankrupt, etc. the bank gets paid FDIC you know, the educational institute has already been paid. Who pays? The college grad's credit is ruined and you'll have a heck of a tie getting a decent job with bad credit so s/he's flipping burgers, sweeping floors, etc. and tax payers pick up the bill. 

No bank can lend money on those grounds, speculation has too bad a ROI, the investors would vote in a new board soonest.

Can't equate school time to wages either, you describe an education period similar to a doctor's. I know I have a solid 8 years of school and 2 of trade school earning my welding certs and fabricator credentials, long lapsed though they are I still have the time in. 

Does anybody out there think I could've charged as much as a doctor because I have equivalent years in school? I enjoyed similar fantasies while I was learning the trades but learned better as soon as I started applying for jobs.

So, the only point upon which we seem to disagree is time training / compensation equivalency. Otherwise we're saying the same thing with different words.

Frosty The Lucky.