Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) Hello, I am new here. I was an aspiring woodworker until wood prices went through the roof but more importantly, I reside in the people hating, soul crushing, isolated cesspool that is the American suburbs. Thus I have essentially no access to green wood, no trees to put my axes to and no sawyers for hours. Why do I even have axes? You can say I am hopeful. When society collapses I will be the ruler of all the land I could not afford... mwuahah.... I have an absolute addiction for tradition and natural resources, I am a big fan of Crossed Heart Forge's no-plastic, no chemical bottle aesthetic, I can't help it, millennial raised alongside social media and pour over coffee pictures. So, with the price of metal reasonable and the ability to repurpose/reclaim it more easily than wood due to less deterioration, I decided maybe I should make the tools for woodworking instead of making woodworks... Oh the irony. I am compiling a small setup and I want it to keep me going for a while, as I am a proponent of buy once cry once. I really want a coal forge but for now propane seems a bit more suitable. So after this purchase I will be saving for a coal forge. The main reason I am reaching out is because I was burned in the past on "what looked good". Normally, I am not an idiot, but sometimes I am. When I purchased my first Japanese woodworking tools online they were peddled as quality but they were xxxx, I have since purchased almost everything from Stanley Covington in Japan, North Bay Forge, as well as Barr, Gransfors Bruk, and Veritas, I'd like to do the same with most of this gear. I will have to buy cheap hammers and tongs for now... I've settled on - Atlas Single Burner Knifemakers Forge - Atlas Graham 117lb anvil - Misc tools: two tongs, two hammers, gloves, fire bricks, wire brush, etc... This setup, I hope, allow me to make many small knives as practice which will eventually lead to making chisels, drawknives, hammer heads, carving knives, etc. Edited June 23, 2022 by Mod30 Language Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Have you seen the special wood carving chisels shown in "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" by Alexander Weygers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 (edited) No, I will have to purchase some books it seems, so far I've been learning online only. I have many books for most things I learn, I've just been putting off blacksmithing books until I get some tools to save cash... Edited June 23, 2022 by Mod30 Remove excessive quote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 I suggest you purchase some books first. One of the great things about blacksmithing is that we can make a lot of the tools we need once we have the knowledge and a little skill. Here's a link to our book review section: https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/40-book-reviews/ Welcome to the addiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 I found several copies for under US$10 online; are you that strapped for cash; or or you not in the USA and so have to deal with international shipping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 Sorry I just didn’t check. I bought a couple luthier books recently only available at around $30 and $90… I’ll be buying a bunch of used books then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 If you are in the USA; I strongly suggest you try to ILL books from your local public library---gives you a chance to look them over before shelling out the money for them. One of my first knife forging books, I bought new and later gave away I disliked the fellow's methods so much; wish I had ILL'd it first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Welcome from the Ozark mountains. Saying you are in the suburbs, doesn't give us a clue as to your location, which in many cases is needed for an accurate answer to questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 Sorry I guess I should’ve started an introduction with a bit more personal info. Just itching to get going… I became especially enamored with Japanese blacksmiths once I purchased my garbage tools and found Covington and his huge documentation of blacksmithing info from Japan. It’s something mystical… the West had it too but… for what little we’ve gained from outsourcing most of our jobs and killing the artisan in lieu of the Chinese and mass produced, we’ve lost quite a bit. South Florida, trying with every fiber I’ve got to get out of here and permaculture most of my food / live off the land in a place I can chop a tree once in a while…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Put your location in your profile settings, so its visible in any discussion. We have a number of members in Florida, so you may be able to connect with some of them or with a local smithing club. Books are great, but nothing beats the experience of watching someone do it right or having someone watching you do it wrong and pointing you right. Also, remember that when it comes to smithing, "traditional" does NOT equal "Luddite". If you decide for personal, ethical, or aesthetic reasons to forgo all advanced technologies and materials, that's certainly a legitimate choice. However, by doing so, you would actually be forsaking an enduring tradition of smithing: the embrace of innovation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming. Glad to have you. Both wood and metal can be scavanged trom trash and othe sources. Also, ask, ask, ask. If you see a neighbor with a fallen branch from a hardwood species ask if you can have some or all of it in exchange for helping cut it up and remove it. You will see references here to the TPAAAT which is the "Thomas Powers applied anvil acquisition technique." This involves asking every living human you encounter whether they know of where you can find an anvil. It works for about everything including wood and metal and tools. It has been my experience that older hand tools often work better than brand new ones. So, what you can find in flea markets, "junque" shops, salvage yards, garage sales, Craigslist, etc. is often a better tool than what you can get a big box or hardware store. In suburbia you may need to drive a bit into some of the older or more industrial areas but that is not very different from living in a rural area where you have to drive a good distance for many things. You will find it cheaper to refill propane bottles at a propane company of farm store rather than exchanging them at the super market or other exchange place. If you put your general location in your profile we will be able to give you better answers to your questions because many answers are geography dependent. Right now we don't know if you are in the suburbs of Fargo, ND, LA, or Miami. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 As for your setup, a couple of observations: Propane is great for the suburbs, as it does not produce the amount of smoke that might lead neighbors to complain to local authorities. Staying on good terms with those around you is highly desirable. I would normally have said that the anvil was on the light side, but given that the Graham concentrates most of its mass in the center, I will not say it here. Just don't go too wild with heavy hammering on either the horn or the heel. The swages on the base are a nice touch. Make sure you clean them up nicely; any roughness on the inside faces will transfer to your workpiece. Think carefully about the design of your anvil stand, as you want something that holds the anvil securely enough for regular use, yet allows you to turn it on its side to use the swages. A welded metal stand that allows both positions and also lets you wedge the anvil in place would be a good option. Finally, the one piece of advice I give to all newbies: People starting out will get all twisted up about their anvil, their forge, and their hammer, but almost no-one pays enough attention to tongs. If you can't hold it, you can't hit it. I don't care what anyone else tells you: there are no cheap alternatives to tongs, and tongs are not a beginner project. Invest as much as you can afford in good quality tongs; you will not regret it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 Thanks for all the info... The anvil is an absolute pain when I see the prices, I am not well off. As I said, I try to buy once, cry once though, that's hard to do for the relatively poor but I will not compromise... So, I have a couple options here. I could buy this decent anvil and be content for a while... or I could forego that option and buy an absolute junker from China to learn on for a bit to save cash and put it towards one of those Nimba Titan (sp?) I have read about, or generally any lifetime tool-oriented anvil. Perhaps I'd be willing to save a just a bit and get Atlas' knife maker anvil, although it's not much different from the literal rectangular hunk of steel the Japanese use. Of course this anvil acquisition technique sounds decent but it could take a while, I am not sociable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 In your situation I'd probably opt for a literal hunk of steel to start with. You should be able to obtain something between free and junk prices that will fit the bill, save you a bunch of money, and let you get started beating on hot steel. Here's some examples of improvised anvils: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52308-a-collection-of-improvised-anvils/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 It looks like a good and useful steel anvil. Personally I have been bringing an 80# rectangular solid of steel to demo's and classes that I paid US$16 for at the scrapyard just to show that the style of anvil that has been used for 10 times as long as the London Pattern has, still works! I would NOT suggest getting a cast iron ASO; and be careful---I have found a brand called "Real Steel" selling cast iron anvils---guess which words were largest on the box? The fastest way to go from nothing to good work is to start ASAP and practice! Do you have any relatives or organizations you are part of where you could start using TPAAAT? I'm an introvert and talking blacksmithing to folks has helped me a lot in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 I absolutely hate driving, I drive about once a month to pick up bulk organic foods at a co-op 35 minutes away and that’s as far as I go. Weekly I go to the grocery store once. Everything else I do is planned around those two trips, lol. There’s a somewhat local metalworks place nearby, I already called them today to ask about a giant hunk of steel and they told me they have them but that’s what they use besides one anvil… so I’m on to something. Scrap yard time… Again, I appreciate all the help but … let me put it this way, I am in a position to change how I earn money. I have time right now, a lot of time, and a way to support myself minimally in the mean time. Thus I am trying to progress quickly. I like the idea of my actual life being fed by the quality of work I do with my hands. The possibility of error is there but there’s no room for it. Artisans have reputation that can be tarnished and hard to recover. This, is more exciting than being some drone. No, as a noob I don’t expect to get rich, but I can’t squander the possibility that I can in fact support myself with this at some point, the ideals of the artisan fit so well with who I am. I am taking this opportunity seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Invest your time in practice. Get those basics solid, and you will not regret it. I would suggest that you start with making nails, which will really help you develop good hammer control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 There are a lot of online sources for books as well. Some of the survivalist and bushcraft forums have free PDF libraries as well as the third world extension services. The UN agricultural engineering department has a 3book series that is particularly nice. there are some pre copyright boacksmithing manuals out there as well, of particular interest are the power hammer manuals as they have some very good information on how to block out or isolate different parts of your work as well as order of operations to work more effetently. Tho power hammer hand tooling looks very different it will give you ideas for quick and dirty toolin for one off operations as well as angel tooling for repeatable operations. Remember that hand forging and power hammer forging are more alike than not. The hammer and anvil are just hand held dies after all As for as gas’s forges, Mike and Frosty over at the forge 101 and burner 101 threads have forgotten more than I ever knew about gas forges. Most factory forges need some work such as rigidizer and an IR coating out of the box to be safe and effetient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Check out Blacksmith Books - Free Downloads from the Blacksmiths Association of Missouri -- in particular the COSIRA books linked therein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 I think I might get a decent shaped anvil off the bat... What were those called? London Pattern.. and also acquire as many giant hunks of scrap steel as I can. That seems like the best route. I will have to pursue whichever comes first though, might have to put my anvil purchase on hold while I save up. I'm on AbeBooks filling a cart with pretty cheap used blacksmith books, so far, only added The Complete Modern Blacksmith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Check the improvised anvil thread out I am always a fan of low initial investment for non junk tools to get your feet whet then move on to more pricey tools after you know you will use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 I can’t quite name a tool I’ve seen in recent memory that I’ve enjoyed watching as much as a power hammer. I’m not really a giant industrial power object manufacturing lover but wow, watching those smiths pound a chisel and tang is so satisfying. The perfect timing, sound, motion, it’s all so satisfying. Absolutely on my bucket list to use or get one. I really hope I get to see one in person. Thanks everyone. Great community, no hard times, I’ll try to learn something new and people online tear you down for some reason. It really serves no purpose... I know that would change in person unless they’re a true class-A jerk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Let your improvised anvil pay for the one you want! Of course I would argue that a type of anvil that has been in continuous use for 3000 years over most of the "ferrous" world is decent---Japanese swordmakers use them and they are considered to do decent work! I've a stack of London pattern anvils and use them often; but I've also made my own stake anvils and used "cube" anvils. If I had to make a living at ornamental ironwork I probably would go for a southern german double horned anvil and if I was making tools and doing heavy forging something like a Nimba. But I'm cheap and so use the ones that the TPAAAT brought in and am happy I anviled up before FinF came on tv...been forging 41 years now; it's my primary hobby. TPAAAT also works for power hammers; I found 3 for sale 2 blocks from where I worked in this small rural town. I was able to buy a blacksmithing "hoard" and sell off what I already had or didn't want and pay for all I kept; so my 25# LG and cone mandrel and coal forge for billet welding were *free*. (NM is tool poor as it had a very small population in the latter 19th and early 20th century. Florida had about 2.5 times the population of NM in 1900 and NM is almost twice as large.) If you read a lot here you will probably run across me saying over and over again: 1000 hours forging on a US$100 anvil will make you a better smith than 100 hours forging on a US$1000 anvil. It's skill, stamina, muscle memory that counts the most! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kooky Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 I am itching to get going as I've said... As I wait for my forge it's now a trade off of luck/perseverance and waiting before I can start, and buying a standard anvil and spending a bunch of money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Since you don't need to spend a lot of money on a London Pattern anvil, (Not standard over most of the world!) Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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