Friend wanting to forge

[SinDoc]

I have a friend who is wanting to get into blacksmithing as well and right out of the gate wants to make a bearded axe. I have told him that that is not a project for a beginner and should try something else to start with but he isnt backing down.

What are a few projects I could give him to teach him what he would need to know to make an axe? Apart from the general basics of forging of course. I told him being a beginner myself, I wouldn't be of much help fairly quickly. I did let him borrow my book on making blades that I purchased from Steve Sells on here (I had a wonderful time reading it by the way Steve!)

[Frazer]

Make him him do a leaf key chain or a bottle opener first. Your forge your rules . Then ask him if he still wants to make an axe right off the bat. If he does then he still needs to make the tools to be able to attempt such a project. If you already have then, tell him he has to make his own. It's part of the process.

Other than that, there are many, many projects that involve slitting/drifting and/or welding. Obviously some of them are easier than others. If you're going to get yourself on track to make an axe, start small. Take a ball peen hammer and turn it into a small tomahawk. Half the work is already done for you there.

Hm... Steve Wells.... Wells.. is that H.G.'s brother? *grin*

[SinDoc]

I had thought about a bottle opener as well as it would make him stretch material and also drift and punch. I have iterated to him that I have yet to even make a successful knife let alone something like an axe. I also haven't personally successfully done a forge weld either, so trying to do a fold for the eye of an axe would be really hard as I couldn't help or offer guidance.

[Latticino]

Cross posted with Frazer, who I completely agree with.

Probably the easiest path for making a sort of bearded axe as a beginner is to start with a fairly large ball peen hammer.  Forging the beard will still be a real trial for a beginner.  Spreading out the width will take some doing, as will redirecting the mass into a dropped beard.  You may be able to keep them involved by using top fullering tools and letting them strike.

As far as projects to lead up to axe making, the typical blacksmith projects of learning to taper, spread, bend, punch, drift, and forge weld will all be of value.  Heat treatment will also be required.  I have taught rank beginners how to forge wrap and weld tomahawks before, but a lot of hand holding and "monkey see-monkey do" direction is required.  You can't teach what you can't accomplish easily yourself, so be sure you have a really good handle on how to make one yourself.

[Frazer]

One thing I've learned with respect to blacksmithing is that its not a sprint, it's a marathon. A bit of a cliche perhaps, but it's true.

You can try to sprint to the finish line, but there's a 99.9+% chance you'll just tire yourself out and give up. That, or you'll slow down, find your rhythm and cruise your way there.

Your friend is at the first peak of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Perfectly normal. I wanted to make Damascus knives and swords when I first started. Now, not so much..

[SinDoc]

I feel that Frazer. I also wanted to make Damascus stuff and very quickly realized that was a much, much more advanced thing to do then I thought it would be.

My last few ventures have simply been trying to successfully forge weld. Ironically the closest I came to a successful one was with a chainsaw chain stack on top of each other.

[Frazer]

Keep at it, it will click.

Have a clean fire, get it hot enough, once it drops below a welding heat stop hitting it.

[SinDoc]

I think that was my problem when the weld broke, I let it get too cool and kept hammering.

My buddy is coming over after the holidays so I will have to report back how he does! If I turn out to be a total failure of a teacher, I send him to Adlai here in Columbus lol.

[ThomasPowers]

I've run into a number of folks who were *certain* that they could do complex difficult things with no ramp up of skills.  I generally tell them that "then they don't need me to help them or provide access to stuff.  Good Luck!"

With a friend I might let them prove to themselves that they need to work their way up to doing complex items.  Unfortunately such folks can be quite hard on tools.  I have a heelless anvil and a dead soft hammer I let such folks work with.

[SinDoc]

Thankfully as I am a beginner as well, I dont have super nice hammers or anything else. Worse case is he misses a swing and dings my already somewhat soft anvil. Poor thing needs retired.

[BillyBones]

SinDoc, if you can not make an axe how can you teach someone? I would just tell him that, i can not teach you how to do something i cant do, but i will teach you what i know how to do. 

 

 

[Chad J.]

I'm not sure where I saw it but there is a nice series of drawings on how to make a rail spike tomahawk.  Maybe it was on a bladesmithing site.  It was a very simple set of instructions, but at the time it was beyond my skill at lost interest.  I have focused since then on knife blades, bottle openers, leaves, s hooks with a more complex build occasionally to test myself.   My bick out of 1 1/8th inch hex stock was a huge smile on my face when I was able to complete it. 

[dickb]

Explain to him that you don't have enough experience to forge an axe so you can't coach him in that project. 

You can offer him a choice of projects that you are comfortable with, but start with the easiest ones. 

Be careful working near or around him. Pay extra attention to safety. New blacksmiths can make some very dangerous mistakes. 

[Daswulf]

I've quenched, No Tempered is the better term,  over reaching delusions of grandeur when they are intent on a large starting project by heating up large stock, (around an inch or more) and having them work on forging a taper in it (all it usually takes). Of course I'll hold it with the tongs or the large section.  They soon realise how much work it is moving larger stock and are more susceptible to a smaller project to start.  

I Do try to start starting smiths on smaller projects to learn basics first. 

[Rojo Pedro]

I like Latticinos advice. Have him him forge one from a ball peen. 

He will quickly find out that he has a lot to learn and if he is capable he might end up with something nice. 

[Frosty]

I like that Das, I have some 1 1/4" Sq. bar I might let an insistent new guy have a lash at. I tell new guys I don't make blades so, won't show them how. Period. One smarter than me fellow pounced on the "fact" I'd said "won't" not Can't so he was sure I'd show him if he out semantic BSed me. I stopped enjoying semantic games in high school unless it's a game of puns.

I didn't argue, I showed him what "won't show you," means. Shut off the forge and locked the shop door. 

I like your method much more.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Daswulf]

Frosty, you also get to watch the hammering slow and them realize their mistake. They start thinking small is a better start real quick. 

My oldest brother asked me to forge him a gransfors bruks style splitting maul. I told him it was cheaper and better to buy theirs at around $175. 

I'd have had to build the tooling, learn the best steel and heat treat and even How to shape it. They have it down. 

Had him hammer/strike on a 6# sledgehammer to help me make him A splitting maul. Didn't take long for him to get the idea. He didn't come back to finish. 

We Do want potential smiths to get into it and learn and enjoy it, hence why we encourage them to build skills and start small with basics. My brother didn't want to do it but needed to get the idea.

I've done a few other times with the large start and them realise to start small and build up. 

 

 

[Dax Hewitt]

I think the problem is people see a knife or an axe made in 3 hours on forged in fire and think that looks easy, I can do that.  I get people asking me if they can have a go to make a sword, for some reason everyone wants to make a sword. 

I explain I'm very much a beginner and even if I was inclined to make one I'm years away from a sword but they can make a key ring. 

6mm round bar tapered to a point at both ends, coiled up with the last coil reversed making a small loop. 

They quickly realise how difficult it is to get the metal to move where you want when you start out. 

[BillyBones]

I had a friends son come over one day and he said he needed a fire poker. I handed him a piece of 1/2" square and said make one then. He asked how? so i explained we would just do a simple split end turkey foot poker. Now he has been in my shop watching me work on many occasion, he even put the handle on a knife we made for his dad,  but this was his first time hitting hot iron. I remember i said to him " I hit that a lot harder than it looks dont I?" His 8 year old daughter bent the handle to finish it. 

What i am getting at is what Das and Dex both point out. It is decieving when watching someone just how much work and effort they are actually putting into it, in person, much more so when it is video or TV. Some lessons have to be experienced.

[SinDoc]

Since the only thing I have down pat and to a science is hooks, I was going to have him make a couple to show how much of a pain it can be stretching and tapering material and then imagine working on metal that doesn't move anywhere near as easily and is much thicker. I don't want to completely discourage him but also want to make sure I get the idea across that he is aiming way too high for a first project and trust me, I have told him several times already that I can't make one myself so can't offer any sort of guidance on making one.

I invited him to come over this weekend and let him bang on some metal to get an idea of what he is getting himself into.

[ThomasPowers]

I tell beginners that every process that they use to forge a hook is also used to forge a blade and it's a good idea to practice them on things that are difficult to mess up rather than things that are easy to mess up.   I don't know if that really helps; but the ones that continue smithing seem more willing to do a slower ramp up.  Luckily I buy ballpeen hammer heads cheap at the scrapyard and fleamarket as the ones that want to jump into forging one into a hawk never seem to succeed.

[Frosty]

I've only had to be a hard case a couple times, I get caught up in old memories sometimes. I usually start guys with a leaf coat hook. Though it's a little advanced for a first time it takes up a good bit of time and teaches a lot. When I spent more time at the anvil I could forge one from stock to finish in about 6 minutes while describing the what and why of what I was doing. 

Then I coach while the beginner spends typically 30-45 minutes making a leaf coat hook. They end their first session with a finished product they can hang on a wall, show off and use, tired and maybe a little sore. Minimal burns, usually from twisting. If I have a bunch of folks lined up at a demo wanting to take a lash I switch to the S hook because it's a good first project and goes faster.

What I encounter and we all see on the forum is the belief that having the "right" tools lets a person to do a thing. Tools and equipment are inanimate objects without a human directing them. The finest anvil on Earth can't do anything but rust and even that requires an outside force. 

This isn't a dis to the newcomers on the forum, we've all been there, I still imagine all the cool things I could do if I had X machine. I've just learned enough about machines and tools in general to make decisions based on how long I think it'd take ME to learn to do X with that machine. I still have a bunch of machines and tools I'll never use.

I'm getting better at not adding to the list though. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

I've had a lot of people tell me that *my* hammer is what makes the difference between my smooth tapers and their ragged twisted pieces---so I now  use *their* hammer to do a correction to their piece.

[Frosty]

Yeah, we both use the same hammers, tongs, etc. I really like the look on their face when I show them I can hit much harder with a much shorter swing. It's a good demonstration of technique being king. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

OTOH, it's also fun to do a lot more with a lighter hammer for the folks not familiar with 1/2MV^2

Trying to get them to use their arm and not just the wrist is a constant battle; need more construction in their background!