Re-heat treating an anvil (as a whole or in sections?)

[RaggedEarth]

So I have been a blacksmith for about 5 years now, but cut my teeth at a living history museum, so I have had access to old but albeit quality blacksmithing tools. I moved away from the museum and no longer have access to its workshop, so I have started my own workshop in my home. I purchased the 112# cavalry anvil by NC tools, as it was the best bang for the buck that I could find.  I have no problem with the face, but as I found out, the horn is not at all heat treated. This it "on purpose" according to NC Tools but its so soft that it gets chewed up by normal forging of hot steel. Now, on to the question. Is it possible to re-heat treat an anvil, or even a section of an anvil. Or is there a company that has this ability?  Could it at least be case hardened somehow. I know full well that the answer to my question is most likely either NO or "if you have the money" But im really hoping to hear some opinions that have not occured to me. Thank you guys and gals in advance for your help!  

 

Also, Does anyone know the alloy of NC Tools anvils?

[Steve Sells]

You can re harden an anvil,  but I am not aware of any way to partially heat treat a section.  How would you prevent the adjacent area from being effected by the heat? I suggest you read through the pinned posts in the heat treat sections to gain an idea of what heat treating is.  The material for the horn may not be hardenable.

[RaggedEarth]

3 minutes ago, Steve Sells said:

I am not aware of any way to partially heat treat a section, how would you prevent the adjacent area from being effected by the heat?

My thoughts were to create a heat sink with blocks of aluminum or wrap everything but the horn with a soaked towel. But again I really have no idea if that would work as I certainly don't have experience with such large chunks of steel, so I'm not sure what that transfer percentage would be between sections. 

[Steve Sells]

let us know how that turns out

[Frosty]

Case hardening won't work, it's only a surface treatment and won't prevent: dents, punch and chisel marks.

From what I know, horns aren't hardened. Knowing of no good way to isolate either heat or quench between large cross sections of steel I don't know if it's possible. So my limited knowledge tells me they aren't the same allow making the horn unhardenable.

That's semi educated speculation. 

Even if you were to suspend the body of the anvil in a water bath and only heated the horn, heat will conduct through the center of the horn to the anvil body. Either preventing the horn from reaching critical temp at any depth much below the torch flame. And OR will bring the body of the anvil to tempering heat. 

You MIGHT be able to pull it off with an induction forge but for the price of one that'd bring say 5" diameter of steel to critical temp you could buy a top shelf anvil and have money left over.

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Rare,

The Horn does not have support on it's underside. All hard/serious forging should be done over the waist. If you want a round surface to hard forge on, pick up a shaft and weld it to a standing up on edge piece of 1.5" or thicker plate (3" round 1045 shaft welded to a 24" square plate, 2-3" thick). Serious work, requires serious equipment. A 112 lbs. Anvil is not made for serious work (sledge hammer work). Radius the edges of your 112 lbs Anvil and learn how to use it properly. Working over a radius edge is like night and day difference. The flat face is good for smoothing up the lumps.

Go to a WalM--- and buy a small container of Play-Doh ($1.00 in the Toy section). Play-Doh works identical to hot steel except you can learn in your hands. When you pinch Play-Doh between your forefinger and your thumb, that is exactly what is happening when using a radius edge of the Anvil, working at an angle on the edge.

There are really good Anvil's around with horn's and heel's broken off, from sledge hammer work. Give your dear Anvil a chance to work with you!!

Neil

[ThomasPowers]

None of my anvils have hardened horns: Trenton, Arm and Hammer, Hay Budden, Peter Wright, Powell.  Are you working at a proper heat?

I agree with  Swedefiddle; if you need to do heavy forging over a curved surface, get some pieces of shafting to use as improvised anvils and save your store boughten anvil for work that doesn't damage it.

[anvil]

Yup, the horn is not hardened and is used to turn scrolls etc. Some use it as a fuller to draw out iron. This is usually done right near the step. Unless your hammer control is really bad, you shouldn't ding it.

You may know this so I'll add this for general knowledge. All lines on the horn converge to the tip. Thus there are no parallel lines. So, when you draw out on the horn, one side gets forged more than the other. You can correct this, but hey, I'd rather not forge to correction. I'd rather forge to completion. The difference is forging to correction means you have to correct. Forging to completion means you may not have to correct.

[Stash]

Fisher anvils have a tool steel top surface on the horn and table, same as and applied the same way as the face. I would expect the horn is hardened at the same time the face is.

Steve

[ThomasPowers]

I ran across "NC anvils are one of the most popular cast anvils in the US. Made from ductile iron they are cast and poured." Not something I would want to try a differential hardening and tempering on.

Also from a 2012 post by njanvilman: The steel part of the Fisher horns were never hardened. Only the steel face was. The quenching after heating was also a test of the weld. The horn steel was actually in an annealed state as it was heated to a welding heat, then cooled slowly over several days.

[RaggedEarth]

thank you everyone for your tips and advice. I think I have come to the conclusion then, that the work that I have done on the horn has not been at an adequate heat. I am brand spanking new to propane forges and I don't think my forge it getting as hot as it should and I have also been forging in full sunlight, while i construct the cover for my work area, and misjudging the color. All in all it sounds like this is a case of incorrect assumptions and user error. Thank you everyone for helping me you!

[ThomasPowers]

If us old curmudgeons see further than others; it's because we are standing on enormous piles of our own mistakes!

[Frosty]

I stack my mistakes in peer amids, it makes it easier to look into old ideas to check new ones against.  

Nobody's born knowing this, or any, stuff. We've all started with zippo and climbed the learning curve. The never ending learning curve that is blacksmithing is one f the things that makes it so attractive to me. I get to learn new stuff all the time. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[anvil]

I like to say that you can tell the quality of a blacksmith by the quality of his scrap pile.  

[Frosty]

I like the blacksmiths who weld their scrap into art and sell it. Some are so good at it they have to BUY scrap! That's MY kind of professional blacksmith!

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

LOl,  I'm, definitely not one of them.  I like it when friends look at my scrap and exclaim,, "Wow, thats really cool, can I have it?" Select friends only get a big yes. Then there are those who ask because they want to do what you state above. Again, some get a resounding "have at it".

Me? Its not within my skillset to fab something out of scrap thats only purpose is to create an emotion.

Much respect to those those who can

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, anvil said:

Me? Its not within my skillset to fab something out of scrap thats only purpose is to create an emotion.

Oh I don't believe that! I'm sure you could weld up many things that evoke a strong BLECH emotion! 

Me either. I don't see stuff in the junk that become parts of things. Silverware insects maybe but that's about my limit. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

Lol, the first thing I would have to do is get a welder!!  The BLECH emotion would then be easy. 

[Frosty]

So: rivet, collar, mortise, wrap, key, etc. join it together. Come on you're a creative guy, a good public blech reaction is NOT beyond you. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[anvil]

    Lol, I actually have a few friends who do metal art using traditional joinery. 

    I suspect for me this BLECH reaction comes from my background. Raised to be an aerospace engineer, 2-1/2 years at Univ Colo pursuing engineering, 17 years a farrier, 30+ years a traditional smith.  I have no problem with "Craftsman" and when I discovered the definition of "applied artist" I finally got over my aversion of being called an "artist".  

    Applied Artist: product must have  two primary purposes. It creates an emotion(BLECH works )  and it must have a function. Lol, if you build a gate, it must swing.  

    No function then it ain't me.  I have an Indian(Ute) friend who has taken pieces from my scrap pile more than once and done some really cool things with it. I look at it with awe and wonder.  

[JHCC]

I saw a quote somewhere (I think it was attributed to Ruskin, but I'm not certain) that one aspect of a true work of art is that it shows the indelible if sometimes indefinable marks of having been created by one human being for another. Interestingly, that's also one aspect of something that is less "Art" and more "Craft".

On 10/25/2020 at 12:40 PM, RaggedEarth said:

112# cavalry anvil by NC tools

Getting back to the original question, NC Tools makes their anvils from ductile cast iron.

[pnut]

I've heard the same complaint from others about NC Tool anvils. That doesn't mean they all weren't working the stock too cold though. 

Pnut

[anvil]

Art definitions aren't my interest. They are thick as thieves during an election year! When i first started, people seemed to like to tack artist into what I was and did. It just didn't feel good or right. Then I read a definition by or from, I believe Pete Renzetti in the Ring. It was simple and seemed to solve my problem. He said there are 3 kinds of artist. Fine art, applied art, and commercial art. Fine art had one primary purpose and that was to create an emotion. Applied art has two as above. And I can't remember about commercial art. Well his definition of applied art (craftsmanship) enabled me to not feel like I was "putting on the style" when artist was attached to me and my work. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.