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Will this be safe?


Balbasarado

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This forge is basically a copy of a picture that Frosty posted.  The differences being I have a three-quarter inch burner that was purchased off eBay, different threaded rod sizes, and no doors.  I swapped out the bell reducer it came with for a threaded coupling according to what I understand his directions to indicate.  I haven't yet bought a heat reflective coating for the interior. I think I can still fit a tub of water and a fire extinguisher on this cart. Maybe later I'll add a rack for tongs. But my primary question is: does this appear to be a safe set up?  I would like to use it indoors.  But when not in use, I need the whole kit to roll out of the way.  Any other advice is welcome. Thanks for looking.

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Having the propane tank under the forge while it is running is not safe and against regulations in many jurisdictions. Having the fire extinguisher right under the forge, when it is running is also not a good idea. Using a propane forge indoors unless there is adequate ventilation and a good CO (carbon monoxide) detector could prove deadly. When the forge is shut down and cooled off, storing those items to move it should not be a problem though. You will probably need to outfit it with adjustable doors like Frosty's forge has, (not a safety issue) but to improve efficency and economy.

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3 hours ago, Goods said:

What is you indoor area and how much ventilation do you have in that space?

The area is a two car garage.  It may be 20x24.  I can open the double garage door and run a fan this time of the year, but I was hoping to be able to use this in the winter, when opening the garage door is not something I'm liable to do.  I'd more likely just not do any forging in the winter if it's not possible to make it safe for indoor use.  If adding an exhaust hood would solve it, that may be something I'd consider after a few years.  I need to make sure the hobby sticks first. 

Irondragon,

I will get the CO detector mounted before I light it again.  I can put the fire extinguisher anywhere nearby I'm sure.  I thought it'd be handy for it to be right there with the cart, but having it attached to the wall of the garage should be ok.  Hopefully it'll never have to be deployed.  But I'll make sure I have a straight line to it, just in case.

I will have to figure out how far away the gas bottle has to be.  At least it can be stowed in a tidy manner after everything has cooled down. 

Lastly, I thought I would probably have to put the doors on it, but I do not have enough bricks to do it.  I will order more, and get some more threaded rod, as I cut them too short for his method of keeping the doors captive.  Or I will get some rod couplings and bolt on the door keeper that way.

Does anyone foresee any problems with running the larger burner?  I ordered it before I'd ever read anything about a burner.  I have intentions of making a 1/2" burner soon enough, but I'd like to actually smash a little bit of metal in the meantime.  Being completely ignorant and inexperienced, I won't really have any idea if things aren't going as smoothly or as quickly as they should.

I did light it up for about a minute.  Somewhat anticlimactic to be honest, but I really needed to see a flame in there. 

Thanks to both of you.

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55 minutes ago, Glenn said:

It can generate CO and you do not want to put CO in a closed space or where it can get into the house.

My next question was if it’s an attached garage... We’ve all heard the stories of families never waking up after someone got home late at night excited about something, left the car running in the attached garage, and flooded the house with CO... Dangerous stuff!

David

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If you have a CO detector in the garage and keep a door (main or people) partway open I think it should be safe.  CO is generated by incomplete combustion.  So, if you have adequate air for the propane to burn you should be OK.  It's when the forge of any other combustion (wood stove, etc.) is not getting enough O2 that you start to get CO generated.  A CO detector with fresh batteries or running on 110v AC is essential.

A friend of mine was running his coal forge in a closed garage.  His wife found him on the floor and he had to spend quite some time in a hyperbaric (high pressure oxygen) chamber to flush out the CO.  Not a fun time and he was one sick puppy for a long time.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

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Your cart's fine and with some use you'll find where you want the forge to sit on it. 

Place the propane bottle off the cart in use though you'll want to put something in the way so folk don't try to walk between the cart and tank and trip on the hose. Sounds unlikely but for some reason folk do it, even the person who owns the set up. A small table or free standing tong rack is road block enough. I have a 100 lb. propane tank and it's always in the same position. 

Keeping the fire extinguisher close to the potential source of a fire is intuitive but a mistake. The best place for fire extinguishers is by the exit so you or anybody isn't tempted to stay next to a fire to fight it. Things can get beyond your control in seconds. 

Do you have a man door next to the vehicle door in your garage? If so its pretty common cold country practice to roll the forge a couple steps outside and keep the anvil, vise, etc. inside.  CO detector REGARDLESS, it's insidious and cumulative nastiness. 

The problem you'll run into with a 3/4" burner in such a small forge is dragon's breath. You probably won't be able to turn it down low enough to keep it from getting your cart pretty hot. I like cement backer board on sort stand offs under a forge set up on a heat sensitive surface. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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Pick a subject, it is never as simple, or as safe, as youtube shows how to do things. 

Once you have an hour or so of simple safety instruction, such as hit the hot end, hold the cold end, and get it right the next time, and when it gets too hot to hold, turn it loose, etc we have had folks as young as 6 (six) years old forging in a fire.  Safely forging in a fire.

Find a blacksmithing group or organization and go to the meetings. You will learn more in just a couple of hours that you can ever imagine.  We suggest you pack a lunch and a cold drink and read what ever subject is of interest to you on IForgeIron.  Then move on to the next subject of interest.  Ask well thought out and detailed questions and you will receive well thought out and detailed answers.  We want you to succeed so we can be a small part of that success.

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Bottom line seems to be that as it's currently set up, NO it is not safe.  Plus I got the added benefit of some suggestions on ways to make it safer, and ways to do it better, which is all just bonus. 

I was really only thinking about fire and fire suppression, along with packing as much kit on one rolling cart as possible.  I hadn't even considered the CO issues, or the leaky propane explosion issue.  I ran a propane heater all last winter in a very small shop without a care in the world.  SO, hey fellahs you may have just saved a life, or four.  Six lives if you count the cats, which barely anybody does anymore.  That's nothing to sneeze at.

Thank you again everyone.

 

 

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You are welcome, as you have seen we stress safety above all else. I could have explained why running the forge with the tank below it is not safe. In the unlikely event of a runaway fire, it would be hard to shut the gas valve and as we are prone to dropping white hot steel with the tank below, there is a better than even chance of it landing on the tank & hose. A very bad thing indeed. Same with the extinguisher, a roaring fire would prevent getting it in a timely manner.

Same with the Co output of the forge, just about every news cast has a whole family overcome when running a small generator inside the garage and a forge puts out a lot more CO then a 5 HP generator engine.

We just want you to have fun and be safe while doing it, not scare you off.

BTW: our propane forge is outside under a BBQ cover and the 115 pound propane tank is all the way to the right in this picture (you can just see some sign's leaning against it. It's about 20 feet away from the forge. The hose is routed off the pad behind the forge and below the blocks & RR tie over to the tank, which I hook up when using the forge. Ya, I had to buy longer hose but the peace of mind is worth it. If we are getting bad weather I wheel the forge inside the shop.

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Your thread is titled "Will this be safe?"

Safety is about making smart bets. There are no sure bets. However, gamblers know that it's  stupid bet to  "bet the farm,"because sooner or later you will roll snake eyes. Like when you have a fire, and the insurance adjuster can see that you violated safety codes. There is no place in the US that having the fuel cylinder where it is located in that photo is legal.

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One good test is to light several sticks on incense in your work area.  Several means enough incense to watch the smoke rise, form a layer, and drift in and out of the area on its own.  Then ask the wife or neighbor to go into the area and see if they smell anything.  The eyes will show you, but the nose knows.  

A fan will help disperse  and remove some of the exhaust fumes but only a meter can tell you how well the fan works on that day, with that humidity, and those wind and weather conditions.   

Safety is relative to your shop.  What is safe for you at 6 feet, is different than what is safe for the dog at 1 foot laying on the floor, or the kid at  3 feet that came in to visit and see what you were doing.  Time of exposure is also an important factor in figuring all this out.

If you have to ask, it is not safe enough.

 

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Another tricky bit is that if your forge starts to re-run exhaust back through the burner the CO content SPIKES!  So something that starts out OK, can become hazardous due to changes in the shop or weather patterns.

I used to live in Central Ohio and have a number of hacks for working outside in winter weather; BUT when it got really cold I would go down to my basement, (100+ year old fieldstone and *VERY* drafty), and work with a "1 soft firebrick forge" that ran off a cheap propane torch *safely* indoors.

Now I live in Central NM and run my gas forge in the winter with 2 10'x10' roll up doors---on opposing sides and open gables in a 20'x30'x10' wall shop.  I don't roll the doors down any until the wind starts knocking over anvils.  (Plenty of desert out here; come on down!)

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Mr. Thomas  Powers,

has just issued an invitation to visit nearby.  (at least I think so), in that he has written this,

".... (Plenty of desert out here; come on down!",  

The SLAG is wondering if you are selling  time shares of said land.

SLAG.

just kidding,  sorry,  I couldn't resist.

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Slag I'd be glad to sell you some prime beachfront property down here along the Rio Grande; there is a bit of a wait for the rift valley to open up to the ocean; but you will be in on the ground floor so to speak!---Plenty of sand and sun already!

Or as  the Song of the Shield Wall goes  "We'll grant him six feet, plus as much as he's taller, of Land that the sons of the Saxons will hold!" (Refers to the battles of Stamford Bridge and Hastings.)

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Mr. T. Powers,

I thank you for your generous offer. 

Rest assured that SLAG and the worthies at SLAG Industries P.L.C. shall give said offer serious consideration, shortly.

Do you have proper title to the real property?

That is a condition precedent for the purchase and sale of same.

Sincerely,

SLAG.

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Glenn,

Gadzooks man, Admiralty Law (also known as maritime law), considerations never occurred to me.

Also,  adjacent property damage comes under the judicial concept of the rule in Rylands v. Fletcher.

Which can have serious consequences when breached.

Thank you for pointing out these potential judicial problems!

That careful study may make a reply to Mr. Power's offer longer in being made.

Thanks folks,

SLAG.

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