Hammer technique - physiology ?

[CrazyGoatLady]

I was reading the Aspery book on how he holds the hammer. He grips it between his thumb and pointer finger, then the other three fingers, he uses to accelerate with on the down swing. I didn't realize it, but that's pretty much how I've been doing it. I used to do more of the Hofi style as i understood it, but I can't seem to control it as well. I've had to fumble my way through it, but i am leaps and bounds above what i used to do. If I go for more than a week without forging though, it seems like retraining when I do if that makes sense. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Ok, two things to fat a hammer handle can be a problem, your fingertips should almost touch your palm (actually just barely). Second your pinky is 60% of your grip strength. Try griping from your pinky and progressively looser as your fingers go up. you still pinch the handle with your thumb and forefinger. Lastly aim your hammer on one spot and move the stock under the hammer. Think of your self as a power hammer and the anvil as the lower die and the hammer the upper die. 

How heavy are your  hammers? Try a 24oz ball pein. You can also find 1-1/2# rounding and cross peins. Work your way up to a 2# hammer. 

If you find the handle to fat try rasping the handle into a round edged rectangle. 

 

So I aim for 1-1/4”x1”. If your hands are the size of most women you might try 1”x7/8 or 3/4” a peice of 1x2 during strip is 1-1/2x3/4” as a reference, and can be shaved down to see how it fits your hand. 

[CrazyGoatLady]

I'll try the technique your describing Charles. All my hammers range around 2lb.s. The one ball peen is 1lb. I have a couple that are over 3lb.s but I don't use those yet. I do think I need to shave the handle down on my main hammer more though. I wondered if I could close my hand further if that would be good. That seems to be the only trouble I have is maybe the handle is still too thick. I didn't realize it's a good thing for your fingers to touch your palm and currently they don't. I have small hands. My brother used to make fun of them because they were so tiny he said. I have to wear a youth size glove so the fingers aren't a mile too long! 

[Charles R. Stevens]

It will help with grip and fatigue, which will improve your accuracy. I would suggest making a model before taking a rasp to a hammer handle. Then it’s still rasp, try, rasp try. wash and repeat.

 

[CrazyGoatLady]

Thank you for the advice. I will do that

[jlpservicesinc]

Hofi has a video out on his method.. He shows holding of the hammer and such.. 

The largest problem with holding any hammer is it goes against the natural movement of the wrist.. Hofi holding method and useage of the hammer brings the wrist back into line with the correct movement..   This can lead to less wrist soreness, but it also changes the whole dynamic of the hammer swing and is the reason why his hammers were designed short, stout with short hammer handles.. 

He moves into weight vs velocity as the means for moving metal if looked at from simply a leverage ratio.  

CGL,  I posted a video awhile back with hammer movement by Francis Whitaker,  the video with me working on the chisel,  The Hofi video and there is a video or 2 with Mark A (who stands perfectly straight at the anvil and does not bend over at all) I've seen him in person several times.  And Josh Greenwood.  

You can look them up on YT and see for yourself how they swing hammers..  it can be confusing but again, It becomes your own style/rythym, etc, etc..   If you have been forging for awhile you would have started to make your own style and for the most part there are 3 different styles.. 

Old, new, and Hofi..   Old is what Francis Does,  New is more in line with standing straight up (be it bad back, or knees or what have you) and Hofi..  Of course there are thousands of others but each of these 3 have the same things in common and sure it can be nit picked but its a waste of time. 

Each person has a particular way of swinging a hammer..   it's interesting to note..   That most or nearly all the old blacksmiths I have ever seen or worked with a swing the same way Francis Does. Or I do when warmed up..  

Farriers are a different breed and swing a hammer like Old production blacksmiths..  AWesome sauce for sure. 

Anyhow,  Watch the videos and check back..   Its interesting for sure and getting to work with these guys in person or in videos can lead to information that might be known to you , but just not understood in a way that can be put into words. 

In Realty I use all the methods of swinging a hammer. they are just used when the time is appropriate and there is no 1 right way. 

Also of note..  Any long time blacksmith have moved from traditional handle designs to a skinny handle (fits the hand and hand can close on it) with a longer handle that is skinny.. 

Most smiths that have been at it for 30 or more years also rarely use a hammer over3lbs and many are 1.5 to 2.5lbs with a very long thin handle. 

[Benona blacksmith]

1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said:

who stands perfectly straight at the anvil and does not bend over at all

This is how I work at the anvil. "Proper posture" I guess it would be described as. I have had 3 back surgeries so that's what i have naturally adapted to. I also need my anvil slightly higher than what is normally recommended though.

[jlpservicesinc]

Its what works for you..  that is all that is important. 

[CrazyGoatLady]

I watched the Francis Whitaker video. And ýou, Jennifer, make it look like no effort at all! Only time I really think about it is when I first start a session. Then after awhile it gets more comfortable and I can't say for sure what I'm doing. I do know heavier forging, I stand up straight and bring the hammer above my head or around the ear. Depends on what I want done. Then on detail work the smaller hammer, I get close to the work and it's shorter, lighter hits. And I do a lot of planishing.  Either because I can't leave well enough alone, or I'm just such a stickler for detail. Probably both

[jlpservicesinc]

Your eye on details and exactly what you want to accomplish is excellent.. Its the reason your work is as clean as it is..  Well done..  And correct, on hammer size, it depends on what you want to get done..

Thanks, I don't think about form anymore..  

As to getting going:

it is typical to open up (elongate) when hammering hard..   As Anvil says  Nose to Toes in movement.. this opens the rib cage for more air intake and it acts as a recoil strategy for the body in full motion.   As the needed impact gets smaller so does the body. or movement. 

If you can check out the josh Greenwood video and Hofi..  Its all really interesting..    

Got to have a talk with Josh at the 2018 ABANA Conference.  he over heard me talking with another smith about hammer technique and chimed in..  
 

(((So I'll put this here:   Every smith I have watched in a hammer swing when the metal is hot hits nearly identical. they hold the hammer nearly the same, they swing nearly the same).. 

(((The nuances of spring, hand grip, 1 finger 3 finges, pinky , etc, etc.. Doesn't start to be applied till the metal gets cold enough that there is spring back into the hammer)))))

Hofi's method of holding the hammer and flexing the wrist is the only truly different technique as he does it all the same no matter the temperature of the metal.. 
 

Whether you are bent over or standing straight up..  Watch the swing of the hammer and grip and how the body is in motion..  You will see them with a full fist wrapped around the hammer until, they start to get some rebound at the colder temperatures..   Well unless they are welding ..  But, this is a technique thing which has to do with getting the flux out and increasing the temp as the point of hammer impact.. (different topic really).. 

Many smiths who have been at it awhile will stand up straighter as time goes on..  Usually because of accidents not associated with smithing.. 

Both the guys I knew in their 80's worked at the anvil just like Francis or any farrier would.. 

https://video.unctv.org/video/folkways-fire-forge-blacksmithing/

Hobbyist today make up some of the largest percentage so getting in shape muscle wise is maybe the smartest thing one can do.. 

Here is a short video of one of the journeyman smiths, then the lead smith of the blacksmith at Williamburg, VA and then Jennifer Horn at the 2018 ABANA conference. 

https://youtu.be/DFxMfvhQwJ0

I thought i had some video taken of Mark A. but can't find it anywhere.. I have several thousand of folders from videos and stills and still have not figured out a great way of organizing them. 
What do they all have in common?????? 

[CrazyGoatLady]

Thanks for the compliments and posting those videos. I'm partway through watching them, but wanted to stop and comment. I had never heard of Josh Greenwood, but his technique looks absolutely effortless and good description of it. It's funny, I was watching a drumline competition the other day, and I was thinking how they use the drumsticks so fluidly could relate to hammering. And watching the Hofi video, makes me think I'll try an experiment using that shorter handled hammer I have. Like I said, I liked it at first, but maybe I didn't or stopped using his method correctly. Lots of food for thought from all of you guys. Ok, I'm back to the videos again! Thanks!

[BillyBones]

Great info here. Thanks ya'll.

Been having a little discomfort in my elbow recently and i am thinking it is my technique. So i been trying to change the way i grip my hammer. This is what i have learnt, after 40+ years of swinging a hammer it is hard to unlearn bad habits. You must make a conscious effort with every swing. If i stop thinking about it i revert right back to what i was doing. 

As far as handles go, i prefer a longer handle. I like the way the extra length gives some counter balance. 

As a side note i was watching some show on the history channel about the man in the iron mask. They went to a smith in France to have him make the iron mask. The hammer he was using looked to be a 10# if it was an ounce. 

[jlpservicesinc]

BillyBones.. YT video?    since this thread is really about hammer techniques.  If you have a video link it might be useful to see. 

 

[pnut]

11 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

you can check out the josh Greenwood video and Hofi..  Its all really interesting..    

The Josh greenwood video titled the beginner is the video that made what many people were trying to explain to me finally click. I actually needed to see it to understand.. 

Pnut

[BillyBones]

Ok i tried, i have seen enough pics and vids of Leonardo Dicaprio till i know every line on his face now. And how in the world do people relate, shall we say not kid friendly, pics and vids with, well anything you search for? Sometimes i really hate this internet thing. 

My eye balls hurt and i am a little queasy from staring at this computer machine now. 

'

[jlpservicesinc]

What are you watching that has Leonardo Dicaprio in?  Sounds like you have gotten stuck in the twilight zone..  Or you need new glasses..  

[Benona blacksmith]

42 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

What are you watching that has Leonardo Dicaprio in?

Man in the iron mask. He was talking about a blacksmith scene from the movie.

[jlpservicesinc]

You guys watching TV together? 

[BillyBones]

3 hours ago, Benona blacksmith said:

He was talking about a blacksmith scene from the movie.

Nope, it was a documentary about the man in the iron mask. They went to a French smith to have him recreate the mask and this guys hammer was huge. 

It was however videos and pics of that movie that kept popping up among other things, whilst trying to find that documentary. Not a bad movie, watchable and entertaining. 

[anvil]

This thread has covered a lot of ground, and some good thoughts, as well.

Thanks for the good words, Jen. For the most part I agree with you. 

It's true that the older Smith's, especially full time Smith's seem to end up working like Francis, even tho many have never seen him work. I would say most full time Smith's, not just old Smith's. This just may not be because of physical changes due to age but just perhaps a natural migration to a better form due to experience. 

Although getting into shape is critical, (and I'm there now!) I don't put it ahead of form. They both are critical and should go hand in hand.

One of the things we hear a lot about is " there are many ways to do bla,bla,bla. This is true. However there is another very important part to this statement that is rarely heard. "  Even so, not all ways are created equal". Some are just plane not good whilst others are situationally better.

Hammer length. I prefer a longer handle, and I usually thin out the neck, or the part just behind the hammer. However, don't assume that because I use a longer hammer handle that I hold it towards the back. Not so. I have a few places I hold the handle depending on what I'm doing and weight of hammer. All are forward of the center of the handle. The extra length, for me, is for balance. It acts to a certain degree as a counter balance to what I'm doing. I do not brace it against my forearm, it too moves freely. I usually choke up when I use my 6# hammer and hold it a few inches back on lighter hammers. I also choke up, sometimes, when I'm using light blows. I never place my thumb on the top of the handle. For some reason this -bad- habit just never developed for me. 

As far as most of these names on YouTube, and without knowing them, even Jen's friends, I'd hesitate using them as an example of good form or showing "different strokes for different folks". My bet is that if youtube is still around 10 years from now, their form would be far closer to how Francis works than how they work now.

I call the differing styles used by top smiths to be more variations on a theme than a statement on style. It seems that these center around hammer length and how you hold the handle. I find that during an average day in the forge that I use most of these techniques on a situational basis, meaning what I'm doing at the moment determines how I hold the hammer. And what's the theme? Full body movement. I do find that when I use a hammer with a short handle that very quickly I feel pain in my forearm. This happens quicker the heavier the hammer. This could be due to my use of a longer handle and not due to length. On the other hand,,, 

Back to form. There may be variations due to your body type, but these are just that,,, variations on a theme. If you think about it, swinging a hammer for long periods of time, use the same basics of swinging most anything. Here's a few. Golf clubs, baseball bat, tennis racquet, throwing a baseball, football or a fit  , fencing and even jogging. If you don't use your whole body you will not be as efficient and increase the chances of hurting yourselves.

Happy New Year to one and all.

 

[Jasent]

I was paying close attention to my hammer swings yesterday in the shop and noticed when I’m doing heavy forging I switch to the way mark aspery does with using my fingers to accelerate the hammer.  Tried both methods and could move steel faster this way. But soon as I start doing lighter forging I switched back to hofi.    I’d agree it depends on the work your doing as I do not swing my dead blow ( Bertha) the same way I forge.   

[bluerooster]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:18 AM, BillyBones said:

Great info here. Thanks ya'll.

Been having a little discomfort in my elbow recently and i am thinking it is my technique. So i been trying to change the way i grip my hammer. This is what i have learnt, after 40+ years of swinging a hammer it is hard to unlearn bad habits. You must make a conscious effort with every swing. If i stop thinking about it i revert right back to what i was doing. 

As far as handles go, i prefer a longer handle. I like the way the extra length gives some counter balance. 

As a side note i was watching some show on the history channel about the man in the iron mask. They went to a smith in France to have him make the iron mask. The hammer he was using looked to be a 10# if it was an ounce. 

Being in construction, I've been swinging hammers pretty much all my life from age 12. I've found that the hammer it's self can cause elbow trouble.  Regardless the weight of said hammer.  I can swing a 20oz  Eastwing for about an hour, and my elbow is shot. But a 2 pound Bluegrass, I can swing all day, with no ill effects. It's the different construction, and balance of the hammer, that is the difference for me.  As to grip, it's hard to describe,  Thumb and first two fingers carry the lions share, with the other two adding control. The pinky finger is actually curled behind the handle. With a very relaxed grip. For lighter work, it's the thumb and fore finger, with ring finger providing control, other two relaxed.

 Mabe I'm doing it wrong, but There are certian hammers that hurt me, and other hammers that don't.  I can usually tell when I pick one up, which it is.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

1 hour ago, bluerooster said:

swing a 20oz  Eastwing for about an hour, and my elbow is shot.

When we were building our house I was part of the crew. We were laying the roofing plywood decking and I started complaining about my elbow hurting. The older carpenter who was working by me said, let me see your hammer. I handed him my estwing 22 oz leather handled hammer and he looked at it, then threw it as far as he could out and down the hill into the woods. He told me to go and buy a wood or fiberglass handled hammer. The next day I could hammer all day without any pain. Took me twenty years to find that hammer and I still use it occasionally, had to replace the leather rings because the critters had eaten the leather but my go to framing hammer is the 22 oz hickory handled one..

[BillyBones]

1 hour ago, bluerooster said:

I've been swinging hammers pretty much all my life

Been swinging a hammer most my life also. I am a heavy line mechanic (engines, trans, rear ends) so a lot of heavy stuff that needs wailed on with a hammer. My go to is a 46oz ball pien then if i really need to hit something i use the 12#er. Just over the past couple months i been getting a little pain in my elbow. It may not even be swinging a hammer but just my body getting old. If i aint swinging a hammer i got an impact in my hand vibrating it to death. I also got nerve damage in both arms from my time in the Army, which i served on an Abrams and you would be surprised how much time you spend hammering on things there. 

Blue rooster, a little tip. When you want to quote someone you can highlight just the part you want to quote and a little box will appear that says "quote selection". Click on the box and you can paste just that, and it will automatically put it in the reply box for you. Nice thing if your quote is 2 or 3 pages back. Also the mods kind of frown on quoting the whole thing as it eats up band width and some here are still on dial up. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

If it won't fit, don't force it, get a bigger hammer.