Hammer technique - physiology ?

[bluerooster]

6 hours ago, BillyBones said:

Blue rooster, a little tip. When you want to quote someone you can highlight just the part you want to quote and a little box will appear that says "quote selection". Click on the box and you can paste just that, and it will automatically put it in the reply box for you. Nice thing if your quote is 2 or 3 pages back. Also the mods kind of frown on quoting the whole thing as it eats up band width and some here are still on dial up. 

Thanx for the tip. I'll remember that.

[jlpservicesinc]

I measured my main forging hammers.. Overall length is 17" including the hammer head.  It doesn't matter weight.. 1.5 -6lbs. 

[jlpservicesinc]

anvil, I'd still love to see a video of your method.. It's intriguing. 

[CrazyGoatLady]

Me too anvil. 

I tried the Hofi way with my short handle hammer. It felt really awkward. So the way I've been doing it with the longer handle and more of the Aspery way is what I think I'll stick with unless or until time and more experience takes me somewhere else. 

[jlpservicesinc]

So,  I wanted to clarify on  (Old, new, hofi)   These labels are not age related of a person..  It is what seems to be for different smiths.. IE the consistency for long term smiths, then any newer philosophy.. 

So, check this guy out.. Cutlers hammers are usually heavier than regular forging hammers for a given size is stock..  I bet his hammer is a 6lb. Very short handle with heavy head.. 

https://youtu.be/zpeyhC-UIFg

[pnut]

CGL, I tried the Hofi ergonomic method and I too found it not so much uncomfortable but unnatural. It didn't feel like a natural way for me to hammer. I can't argue with his results and countless other smiths that use the technique but it's not for me. I use my thumb, index and to a lesser extent my middle finger to loosely  grip the hammer  so it pivots between my thumb and index finger and only close my other fingers right before I make contact. I couldn't understand what people were talking about until I saw a video from Josh greenwood at Greenwood ironworks. It was the most natural way for me to swing a hammer. I felt kinda silly because that's how I was taught to swing a hammer as a kid by my stepdad who was one of the most knowledgeable carpenters I've ever met. 

Pnut

[jlpservicesinc]

As for the Hofi method.. I find it more comfortable with a higher anvil height.. 

It is important to understand  that "the HOFI" hammer has a lot to do with how it feels..   A traditional hammer used as a Hofi method is not nearly the same. 

[pnut]

 I did notice that the anvil he was using looked higher than what I'm used to seeing. His handles are shaped differently than others aren't they? I have a Czech style hammer but it only superficially looks similar to a Hofi hammer. I'm sure the balance isn't the same. 

Pnut

 

[jlpservicesinc]

I can't speak for Hofi, but only through my own understanding have some insight..  

His hammer was designed to be his Hammer and use his method of use.  All of the design elements like face size, face distance to handle, peen width,  weight, etc, etc all make up the model.. 

People used to go and take classes on just making the hammer correctly..  They do sell his hammer in Cast or forged now..  And there are knock offs which do not follow his model. 



The limit for me with the Hofi hammer is how I work at the anvil..   I have a tendency to work over the anvil face directly for everything with very little edge use.. So because of the short handle to face distance and using the hammer at angle while working I used to smash my pinky into the anvil face.. 

this is because of my grip, and no fault of the Hofi hammer.. 

Anyhow, there was a series of videos on why the Czech hammer and the Hofi hammer were different..  I imagine the videos are out there somewhere.. 

One aspect which I find to be a problem with any instruction..  Is everyone wants to put their own spin on it..  This can change the results and  the method is then dismissed as invalid. 

it really becomes important to understand why things are being done the way they are.. Both physically and mentally. 
 

[jlpservicesinc]

Here is another smith who influenced a lot of people..  Habermann:  

 

[CrazyGoatLady]

I didn't mean to sound as if I'm knocking one way over another if it came off that way. It took me awhile to figure out something that works for me and it just happens to be closer to Aspery and I didn't even know that! I'm just happy that I don't struggle with it like I used to and enjoy working more now that it has become comfortable and I don't have to really think about what I'm doing. But my mind is always open to exploring and maybe coming to an even better technique. 

[jlpservicesinc]

CGL.. Not at all.. Its just information.  What one likes or doesn't like should not matter to anyone else, only the person who is doing it.   You don't even have to validate or  back up what you do, unless you want to..  Its really no one elses business and no reason to justify the skill or behavior..     Its one of the reasons I try to stay away from doing comparisons between" This is what I do vs this is what you do".. In a reply to a thread..   I really just try to add to the thread a different skill set.. Vs my way is better..  Again I try to add to it.. 

Every method can be valid..  "EVERY METHOD CAN BE VALID".. 

With this said.   This thread might help others to understand the methods of hammer control, a hammer swing, why the hammer is used the way it is and why there are so many variations for a given method.. 

this is just another example of hammering and both Hofi and Habermann came out about the same time frame in their information.  And if one looks at the hammers are different but kinda the same.. 

They are both balanced designs (same weight end to end) Vs heavier face vs peen. 

What ever you prefer is perfect for you..  

With Experience comes understanding and being able to share that experience in a way that can be shared and understood by others is part of the teaching process, of which ideally a teacher is a student at that very same moment. 

Again, this is just information.  there is no "Wrong or Right" and one should not be judged as such..  What will happen is over a time frame the hope is they were perfect their skill set and if at some point they find a different way it is usually based on because it works best for them. 

I've been to demo's where Mark A. has been the lecturer and I can not stand straight up and forge.. LOL..   this standing straight up is seen in a fairly small circle and was my point as to Old, new and Hofi. 

Each video that has been posted..  Josh, Habermann, Hofi, Mark A.   Each person has a little different take..   Vs  90% of the Farriers or old time blacksmiths out there..   

It does not mean, one way is better or not..  It simply shows there is different information...   The journey of self discovery is open to everyone.  

Most long time smiths have opinions on ever facet of smithing based on what has worked for them..   Take it all as a grain of salt.. 


 

[jlpservicesinc]

I think the anvil might be a little low for Mark as he is bending over some..  chuckle, chuckle..   He looks a lot more like what..  The old method.  

Here is a really good close up of hammer swing..   See so it does change based on many factors..  Finding footage of Mark in full frame is tough. 

[pnut]

2 hours ago, CrazyGoatLady said:

didn't mean to sound as if I'm knocking one way over another if it came off that way.

I didn't think you were. 

Pnut

 

 

[CrazyGoatLady]

Good. I just didn't want to sound dismissive in any way of any of the things in this discussion. It has been enjoyable and throughly informative. It seems the more I do this, I'm learning to discern what I personally want to do. I used to think there was an absolute right or wrong way. That is not the case. Definitely easier and much harder ways to get to the result you want. We all can learn from each other and that makes us a great community. And I like the freedom of knowing I can make anything I want and I'm only limited by my self 

[jlpservicesinc]

Lot of times with newer smiths they have fallen into the newer smiths mistake paradigm.     short stroke the hammer, (no full swing). Stand to far away from the hot metal. all choked up in the body or hammer or both.  closed chest.. death grip. stop breathing,  only breathing off the top of the lungs.  Etc, etc.. 

Lots of times this is the aspect that many experienced and helpful smiths , want to correct right off.. And for good reason.. 

With how much information that is out there. Forums, videos, schools, friends etc. etc. Its easier for a lot of people to progress rather quickly... That is a great thing and is fun to see.

What usually bothers me the most, is when bad information gets passed along as gospel and then because of a mistake in understanding there is no chance of the person changing their mind, and you will hear them say.. " Well so and so does it that way" and the information is only a half truth..  This usually happens because of a limited newer understanding and they really can't see past that "new" trick. 

Keep up the good work. 

[CrazyGoatLady]

1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Lot of times with newer smiths they have fallen into the newer smiths mistake paradigm.     short stroke the hammer, (no full swing). Stand to far away from the hot metal. all choked up in the body or hammer or both.  closed chest.. death grip. stop breathing,  only breathing off the top of the lungs.  Etc, etc.. 

Geez, you just described me to a tee in the beginning! I'm thankful I've learned so much from so many good and generous people. It would not have been possible without it. 

[ThomasPowers]

I ascribe a lot of what I've seen teaching to folks just not having ANY hammering background.  I grew up in suburbia building forts and splitting firewood back in the 1960's but a lot of folks nowadays have never done any hammering at all!  Trying to get them to lift the hammer high and *hit* the work piece hard is hard.  Some are afraid they will miss; so I give them a soft face hammer and tell them it's ok they won't ding the anvil if they do.  That seems to help.

[jlpservicesinc]

So, since i was out in the trailer today I snapped a few shots of the hammer eye punch I made last summer as a demo at one of my buddies places in NH.. it started life as 3/4" round 4140 and now is a full 1 1/4 sq..   A hammer eye punch is not used for punching the eye.. It is used for dressing the eye once it is punched round and ovalized.  

I've made 2 of them for different sized hammers.. this is the smaller of the 2. the last one I made was 30 years ago..   This was made with a round punch.. Punched to size and then flattened to create the oval.  the eye is nearly straight with no taper as I did not have any special tools with me and only used what he had on hand. 

[Goods]

jlp, what is the purpose of the fullers on the corners just just behind the eye? I’ve seen them on many but not all blacksmith tools. Seeing it on tools that you make, I’m assuming it’s an extra step that is not completely needed, but improves the tool.

David

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

To my mind, simply aesthetics or as others might say a nice touch.

[jlpservicesinc]

Goods, in the olden days it was believed that by doing this the force of the blow would be concentrated into the center of the tool and flow in a straight line thru the tool..  I don't know if it's true or not.. And would merit a study,, Maybe.  

but I love the way it looks so use it on nearly all my hammers, or handled items for blacksmith work..  

One could say "Very classical" and it does look cool. 

[Marc1]

What I'm going to say may sound weird to some.

When I am forging, at first I do think of the hammer and the hand and the swing, but soon enough I am just watching the hot iron and think in the effect I expect rather than how to ... sort of shortcutting the arm and the hammer, if that makes sense, as a remote control. 

May be I'm getting too old 

[jlpservicesinc]

I'm the same way Marc. I don't  think it's weird at all.. ON the contrary.. I think it's normal for long timers..  What happens when I think about it, it gets all wonky..  I just fall into a groove or rythym  and it just shows up.. 

the best is when I get more than once a month to forge.  it takes me a couple of days to start getting it back but really  a weeks worth of forging is amazing. 

[anvil]

On 1/3/2020 at 6:14 AM, jlpservicesinc said:

 I'd still love to see a video of your method

 More great vids. Thanks.

The best way is for you and CGL to spend a day in my primitive setup. Far better than a vid. Recognizing that won't happen, pretty much what you see here and the Whitaker vid sums it up. With a bit more from a Czech smith. Then modified by me to get the final outcome. 

I first saw Freddy at the Ripley abana conference. He was incredible. Alas I was too green around the gills to notice such nuances as his hammer style.

Mark is new to me since I got into internet smithing. 

First check out their hammers. This style is what I use. It's what I call a square cut flat faced cross peen. Notice the cross peen is somewhere around 1/2"-5/8" wide. When I watched Freddy, I did not need to understand his language to understand his vid. I've given that same explanation many times. In particular and most important, his showing the use of the edges of the flat face as a major technique, Including showing just why you primarily use the left and right edges, not the fore and aft edges. I do nearly all my drawing out on the flat of the anvil and use the edges with their unlimited angles that you can get from straight up and down to parallel with the face of the anvil. I use the edge of the anvil to draw as well. I rarely to never draw out on the horn, as Mark does. Do note he does this right at the step where the horns convergence is the least. I never to rare, place my thumb on the top side of my hammer handle. Also, I never hold my handle at the bitter end as he does in the one vid..   

I hold my hammer much as Freddy does with both that loose grip and also when he uses the tighter one. My handle length is more like Mark's and I use it as he does, other than when he is holding it at the bitter end. My hand on the handle is at about the same place a Freddy and back as far as the rear of his shorter handle. Sometimes I choke all the way up to the hammer itself.

In the Whitaker vid where he forged the leaf finial, notice on the upswing how he rotates the hammer 180* to start using the cross peen to draw out the leaf on the downstroke. I started doing that with both hammer and rasp as a farrier.

My "method" is just the input of a lot of input from observing many people mixed and modified by my own usage. For whatever reason I'd say that most of the smiths I've seen and worked with use a similar method to this.

 

Lot of words.