ThomasPowers Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Can you explain your estimate? It appears that you are starting pretty much at ground zero which makes it rather impossible to make a good estimate about a subject you know little about. Dunning Kruger gets mentioned here a lot. To give you a hint: a metallurgy professor with his PhD called me in to help his son rough forge a roman style spatha---no heat treat needed, just a wall hanger; but he didn't have the experience with blacksmithing to be able to do it. (It mainly was too shallow a fire and not heating hot enough.) OTOH when I have questions on esoteric alloys he is the one I go to to ask. Ramble: Back when I was apprenticed to a swordmaker in the early 1980's I forged a similar blade out of wagon tyre iron; but when grinding it noticed a very strange grain pattern to it. So we trucked over to the local University and looked up a metallurgy professor. Gave him all the details and asked what might have caused it. He asked us what we, scruffy blacksmiths that we were, thought had happened. My best guess was that the wagon tire had extreme use in the Ozark mountains and so in some places the metal was packed with dislocations and in other places it had mostly avoided them. When I forged it at a low temp---very gently---the areas of massive dislocations had renucleated new fine grains and the areas without them had experienced grain growth. leaving the swirling pattern of fine and large grain that we saw. His jaw dropped open and he demanded to know why We were not in his classes as that was his guess as well. (We didn't tell him that the swordmaker was the son of a research metallurgist at Batelle or that I had taken MatSci classes as electives at Cornell...) A few terms you should become familiar with: grain growth, distal taper, fullers, harmonic nodes in sword blades, balance and why early blades tend to balance out in the blade and later ones at the guard. Oh I forgot to mention that while I greatly like the Sword in Anglo Saxon England; especially as it show methods of researching subjects with few actual items to work with, the appendix about John Anstee's research on pattern welding has been superseded by more recent research. His use of lots of round rods would not give the patterns seen on examples like the Sutton Hoo sword. (We all know the patterns seen in cable damascus.) And forging of round rods is very time, material labour and fuel intensive. Square/flat stock is easy to produce and use and gives the patterns seen in extent examples when twisted. To paraphrase Sir Isaac Newton: If we have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants." and John Anstee's experiments using a cheese weight as his anvil helped set the stage for what we know today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavers Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 Arthur, I'm brand new to learning blacksmithing. I've spent at least 150 hours reading this forum and books trying to learn and I've not even scratched the surface of what a lot of these guys know. If you want to make a sword then you need a forge. I built my JAPOB forge for less than $20. Next thing you have to do is get metal hot and start working it. It's not as easy as it looks watching the pros doing it on YouTube. My first project was a simple J hook, next I made a S hook. I've been trying for the last week to learn forge welding and still can't get it right. I don't even feel I'm to the point where I'm comfortable attempting to make a pair of tongs. If you really want to make a sword, build yourself a forge this weekend and start working hot metal. Like I said it's a lot tougher than it looks. It sounds like you are probably pretty knowledgeable about bikes. What would you tell someone with no experience that wanted to build a race bike? Would you tell them to slow down, back up and learn the basics first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Arthur of Camelot Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Join the human race little brother we're all mostly self taught. Good sense of humor you have there Art. Pickin and choosin out of a whole is one of my pet peeves. I know I won't be able to learn all of what I need to within 6 years without guidance, and this is without mastering the craft, which I understand will take 10 years or more, so I won't even try to teach myself on this. The only reason I took 11 years to learn what I do know about bikes is because I had little to no support in it since age 12, and I still don't know everything. I still need to learn how to rebuild suspension components, build a wheel, rebuild brake calipers, build a frame, and design suspension systems. All of that would take 2-4 years with professional guidance. Unfortunately, my bike knowledge will only remain relevant as long as bicycles are pedal powered and travel on the ground on wheels and spokes (they will eventually make wheel-less bikes, I swear it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Arthur of Camelot Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 8 hours ago, Beavers said: It sounds like you are probably pretty knowledgeable about bikes. What would you tell someone with no experience that wanted to build a race bike? Would you tell them to slow down, back up and learn the basics first? I would actually tell them to start at the beginning, removing a tire and patching the tubes, as that is the most common maintenance activity done with bikes. Then I will have the person service the chain, then the cranks, then the bearings, then the hubs, so on and so forth. This is how I myself started. I do understand the bare minimum of the basics, that when the steel gets hot, it gets easier to work, and when it glows california orange peel orange, it is ready to be forged (IIRC). A dark cherry color is best for annealing spring steel, if my memory serves me right, where the orange would be far too much for annealing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 There are 3 things that I have found lead to a successful blacksmithing or bladesmithing ability and know how.. 1. Have the money and time to travel all over the place to take classes and in between classes one practices what they learned at the previous class after spending a small fortune on equipment.. 2. Find a group either through ABANA or another local group and hang around and get directly involved at a forge every chance you get, then meet someone there that has the patience to deal with personalities.. 3. Self study.. Which as you pointed out a lack of money.. I grew up pretty poor so never had the money to get involved or to travel.. I did however have the ability to read and then apply what I read and had a inspired destination, much like yourself.. I started with knives and swords and it took me about 6 years to forge a rudimentary sword with study on my own.. I forged many sword like objects before this but it took me that long to call it a sword vs sword like object.. With the internet and videos you could cut this down in time dramatically but the first thing is to get the equipment you need to even start such a task.. Forget about the dream aspect of making the metal and going from there.. Just start with mild steel and forge out a few sword blades for practice.. These are just for forging practice to help develop your ability and to create consistent lines and hand eye to jive.. at the same time forge smaller blades out of 5160, 4140, 1060, 1084, 1095 but stick with 1 material and if you are going to be making a sword I'd suggest 5160 as your base and work with this for the knives until you know this material intimately.. One of the problems we as a group have is we have no idea of what resources you do have other than time.. So, the best thing to do is start work on a :just a bunch of dirt forge: JBOD and start forging.. Show us you are working towards a goal vs just talking about it.. Time as much as people want to be believe is a resource as a good thing to offer, It is not since most work for a living or have worked for a living and see working towards a goal a worthy investment.. Your not the only youngster to come along wanting to make a sword and claim they have time but not much money.. People who really want to forge usually will get a job (Job = $$$ or pay) to supply their hobby and it's rare to fall into a position as an apprentice with little foot work.. My suggestion is share what books you are reading if you have particular questions in terms or heats or hardening etc, etc.. And then get going with equipment to start forging.. A hole in the ground with a vacuum cleaner as a blower is a start.. Progress till perfection.. Its rare to work the other way around .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timber Ridge Forge Posted November 5, 2018 Share Posted November 5, 2018 Yeah like many of the other guys said. I will say to make a sword with traditional methods and make anything other then a piece of junk takes years and years. It also requires an apprenticeship to learn and this education is rarely if every free having said that I wish your luck. I would suggest you dial your expectations way down and start at the beginning and work your way too it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/1/2018 at 11:20 PM, King Arthur of Camelot said: when it glows california orange peel orange, it is ready to be forged (IIRC). A dark cherry color is best for annealing spring steel, if my memory serves me right, where the orange would be far too much for annealing. Even this information is not necessarily correct. Different alloys have different forging temperatures and different requirements for annealing. 5160 is a common spring steel, but there are lots of springs made from other alloys. Some alloys have a very narrow range of forging temperatures while others are far more forgiving. This is one of the reasons it was recommended to pick a good alloy suitable for large knives or swords and get to know it intimately. There are few things in life more disheartening than spending many hours creating a piece only to have it fail in one of the final steps when that failure could easily have been avoided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinnatus Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 On 11/1/2018 at 2:25 PM, Arthur210 said: Actually, the mail the actor is wearing in that picture could be made of plastic. If you want to make a coat of mail, I would advise you to buy the wire instead of making it. In fact, you can probably buy pre-made mail rings and then knit you own mail. If you think making the mail is the most time consuming, you're in for a shock. The time you'll need to spend to make a functional sword (as opposed to a prop) is probably in the order of 10x as much as the time needed to make the coat of mail. I can attest to this - time consuming! I made a coat of mail for my son who wanted a Templars outfit. I spent probably 40 to 50 hours researching the mail and shield. I made the shield by bending three 1/8" sheets of plywood around a curved frame, covering in canvas, and trimming in leather. At the same time made the mail by wrapping electric fence wire around a dowel and then cutting the "spring" of wire into links - making making several thousand of these. I then spent probably 100 to 130 hours weaving these together to make the shirt - learning as I went and making mistakes along the way. Part of this was to make him this costume and have him help me and part of it was to satisfy my curiosity about the historical background of the period. As everyone has said, this was VERY time consuming and involved a lot of research. It can be done but not quickly. Plus when you think that some of the better chainmail had the links pinned (which I did not do) - it must have taken the original armours a lot more hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 apprentices needed work too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 To acquire the sword quickly, seek out The Lady of the Lake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted November 6, 2018 Share Posted November 6, 2018 The Lady needs some form of payment.. Either in good deeds for the kingdom, justice for all and maybe a piece of pumpkin or squash pie.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 one would assume his Highness already has her approval, why else would he assume the title of King ? its very presumptuous on world wide forum otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Ahhh "when you think that some of the better chainmail had the links pinned" Sorry but that's pretty much all maille was riveted or a combination of riveted and solid links---punched or welded. Butted mail is basically a modern cheat, though a couple of battlefield repairs were done that way and IIRC there was a parade coat made of coloured butted links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Strange wimmen lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government! 18 hours ago, Buzzkill said: On 11/2/2018 at 12:20 AM, King Arthur of Camelot said: when it glows california orange peel orange, it is ready to be forged (IIRC). A dark cherry color is best for annealing spring steel, if my memory serves me right, where the orange would be far too much for annealing. Even this information is not necessarily correct. Different alloys have different forging temperatures and different requirements for annealing. 5160 is a common spring steel, but there are lots of springs made from other alloys. Some alloys have a very narrow range of forging temperatures while others are far more forgiving. This is one of the reasons it was recommended to pick a good alloy suitable for large knives or swords and get to know it intimately. There are few things in life more disheartening than spending many hours creating a piece only to have it fail in one of the final steps when that failure could easily have been avoided. Buzzkill is absolutely correct. I would just add that the lighting in your shop is also very, very important: different kinds of light can distort the apparent color of the steel, and especially bright forges can make it harder to judge subtle distinctions in temperature. Photos, online videos, and television shows are also not good guides to the appearance of properly heated steel, both because of the bright lights necessary for decent filming, but also because the incandescence of the steel plays havoc with autoexposure and color balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Even terminology can throw you off, e.g. "Cherry Red" referred to the orangish pie cherries and not the red/black Bing cultivar. This has caused a lot of issues for people who assume "cherries are cherries"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cincinnatus Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Ahhh "when you think that some of the better chainmail had the links pinned" Sorry but that's pretty much all maille was riveted or a combination of riveted and solid links---punched or welded. Butted mail is basically a modern cheat, though a couple of battlefield repairs were done that way and IIRC there was a parade coat made of coloured butted links. True - I was talking about some of the mail that combined both. Considering this was for a kids costume - I wasn't going to go that far - one shirt with butted links was enough. In the end my son loved the mail shirt and we got to spend time working together on the project. The images are from the paper - The manufacture of a chain mail from the Iron Age found at Fluitenberg - including how they punched the links you mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Did they find the tooling or is that just their guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Arthur of Camelot Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: Even terminology can throw you off, e.g. "Cherry Red" referred to the orangish pie cherries and not the red/black Bing cultivar. This has caused a lot of issues for people who assume "cherries are cherries"! I really mean the black cherry red, where you can just barely begin to discern a glow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 The ASM handbook very nicely gives suggested temperatures for most processes for the various alloys---where I learned not to normalize S1 for instance. Old school methods of the sort "works most of the time" can really lead you down the garden path, we have the term dry gulch out here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 20 hours ago, Cincinnatus said: time consuming I also made a quick mail shirt for my son for a Halloween costume one year. Large links like yours, but still a labor of love. If you want to see real time consuming, some day make your way to the Arms and Armor exhibit at the Met in New York City. There is a mail shirt there with double riveted links that has text (I think various Arabic names of God) stamped onto each ~ 1/2" OD link. I was mesmerized: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 The Kremlin Armoury in Moscow has a similar hauberk (formerly belonging to Tsar Boris Godunov) with each linked stamped "If God is with us, who can be against us?" Detail (a little blurry): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Godunov#/media/File:Baidana_rings.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony..." "You can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 Indeed! Malory was a cad. Who can trust an account penned in a prison cell? I've known my share of watery tarts and none of then ever tossed good steel my way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted November 7, 2018 Share Posted November 7, 2018 If your tart is watery, then you didn't drain the filling enough before baking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Arthur of Camelot Posted November 7, 2018 Author Share Posted November 7, 2018 I like where this is going, haha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.