Aspiring blacksmith wishing for personal lessons

[John in Oly, WA]

Probably used apples that were a bit too misty.

[Cincinnatus]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Did they find the tooling or is that just their guess?

Simms paper "Roman Chain-Mail: Experiments to Reproduce the Techniques of Manufacture" details the metallurgical experiments of cold punching the rings that matched up with the rings they found.  The actual tooling wasn't found but based on experiments.

"A set of experiments was conducted to show that punch tools of high consistency could be produced by the technology available in the Roman period and did not require the use of precision machinery. Thus some Roman chain-mail rings could have been produced by a combination of punching and finishing on a mandril. The time taken to produce solid rings was recorded."

"It is likely that rings such as these were produced by punching, followed by hammering on a mandril. Experiments showed that as the punch and die start to wear the rings become somewhat distorted. The distortions are easily removed when the rings is hammered on a mandril. ....It can be seen that the experimental ring which was hammered on a mandril after punching is harder than the ring that has only been punched, indicating that some work-hardening has taken place. The experimental punched ring had a hardness value of 146 VPN, which is very close to the 149 VPN of the metal from Sample A. This indicates that punching did not produce any significant work-hardening. The experimental ring that was hammered on a mandril increased in hardness from 146 VPN to 210 VPN which is in the same region of hardness as the Roman originals."

[Frosty]

I said:

Join the human race little brother we're all mostly self taught.

----------------------------------------------

You said:

Pickin and choosin out of a whole is one of my pet peeves.

Sorry for some reason I can't combine quotes so I'm reduced to cut and paste.

Tell me Arthur, did I say something untrue or mistaken? Be specific please.

As to pickin and choosin out of a whole. It's called discrimination and requires judgement. Indiscriminate actions are called chaotic and often result in train wrecks. If discrimination is really a pet peeve you REALLY need to reevaluate your value system.

What don't you believe about the statement, "we're all mostly self taught"? It's as true a statement as ever made. Unless you're using the stick quiz method of teaching all a teacher CAN do is present information, examples and answer questions. It's up to the student to learn. The problem with the stick quiz method is the students learn to tell the teacher what s/he wants to hear and so learns nothing really useful. Unless the goal is to be a politician or sycophant.  

Saying you have a good sense of humor is just another way of saying, "you have to be kidding!"

You speak in absolutes, most youngsters do, I sure did, to the point my Father didn't want to have me with him in public. One of my regrets in life but I was a kid and too ignorant to know how little I actually knew.

Once you get some miles on you, you'll stop talking like that, it's too embarrassing to have to admit and actually makes learning harder largely because folk rarely want to put all the work necessary to help someone who thinks they know it already.

Just recently you asked where this thread is going. It's going off into: jokes, puns, tall tales, etc. sideways zone because we've had this discussion so many times it's frankly boring. We've rendered out advice and you don't seem to have further meaningful questions so we're amusing ourselves until something interesting comes up.

We're not telling you to go away, we LOVE good questions and we have our fingers crossed.

Frosty The Lucky.

[King Arthur of Camelot]

17 hours ago, Frosty said:

'Sorry for some reason I can't combine quotes so I'm reduced to cut and paste.

Tell me Arthur, did I say something untrue or mistaken? Be specific please.

As to pickin and choosin out of a whole. It's called discrimination and requires judgement. Indiscriminate actions are called chaotic and often result in train wrecks. If discrimination is really a pet peeve you REALLY need to reevaluate your value system.

What don't you believe about the statement, "we're all mostly self taught"? It's as true a statement as ever made.'

Nothing. I understand that its up to us to learn, period. What peeved me is your decision to omit the specificality of what I was learning, which is bikes. The fact that it took a full decade to learn what I know about simply maintaining them I think says something both about my dedication and the effort required to become a bicycle mechanic.

I actually never learned much in school. Up to 8th grade, it was partly stuff I'd heard or learned in earlier years. From high school on, i basically learned nothing, as it was all nothing but repetition. They were just going over the same exact stuff i learned in 8th grade, just made super complicated to make it SEEM like it was new material.

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'Saying you have a good sense of humor is just another way of saying, "you have to be kidding!"

You speak in absolutes, most youngsters do, I sure did, to the point my Father didn't want to have me with him in public. One of my regrets in life but I was a kid and too ignorant to know how little I actually knew.'

What do you mean by speaking in absolutes? Just so I know what it is I have to deal with. I also know I know very little. Which is why I ask deliberate questions aimed at getting the most information possible when I don't have enough knowledge on a subject, usually. I sometimes go too far.

There are some things though that I am quite authoritative on, such as bike work and diagnosing bicycle issues. Any one of you could honestly give your malfunctioning bike to me, and within a day or two, I could have it diagnosed and fixed. If I can't fix it, you would be the first to know. I also charge much less than the bike shop, cause I have no overhead I need to cover.

Quote

'Just recently you asked where this thread is going. It's going off into: jokes, puns, tall tales, etc. sideways zone because we've had this discussion so many times it's frankly boring. We've rendered out advice and you don't seem to have further meaningful questions so we're amusing ourselves until something interesting comes up.'

Nah, I said I liked where it was going, because who doesnt like being amused?

I do have one question though: is this a good book to start with?

[commercial link removed]

I just feel like that would make a good foundation for bladesmithing.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Mod34
Quote cleaned up, commercial link removed.

[jlpservicesinc]

Since you bring up being a Bicycle mechanic.. I am an avid down hill, cross country MTBr and frame builder and road biker..  Also make crank bearing sets and have just about every tool a bike mechanic could want.. 

Bicycle mechanics are a little more simple.. Kind of like workijng on cars or autos or other mechanical things..  Mechanics while a great way of being is not on par with Forging.. 

Forging is about not only having the knowledge to use the tools, but also refining your body to work as a machine  or highly precise.. 

Start forging and things will openly become more apparent.. 

[Ranchmanben]

3 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Since you bring up being a Bicycle mechanic.. I am an avid down hill, cross country MTBr and frame builder and road biker..  Also make crank bearing sets and have just about every tool a bike mechanic could want.. 

I wouldn’t have guessed that of you! You probably would think I’m a rider either! Use to race downhill and dirt jump. Haven’t ridden in quite a while but I look at my trail bike all the time and think I need to dust off and go for a spin. I’ve still got my downhill bike and dirt jump rig but only because there’s no money in old bikes. 

[King Arthur of Camelot]

 

12 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Since you bring up being a Bicycle mechanic.. I am an avid down hill, cross country MTBr and frame builder and road biker..  Also make crank bearing sets and have just about every tool a bike mechanic could want.. 
...

You got any tips for the budding enduro racer? My wish is to race professionally, but independently. No sponsors.

[Frosty]

 

I'm not here to discuss bikes, my friends and I worked on our own on the rare occasion it was necessary. 

Clear communications isn't determined by how much you say, it's about clear communications. Yeah, I know I'm a windy guy and could certainly be more terse. Long words and sentences can and often do bury meaning in filler words and vocabulary beyond necessity and education.

Adding extra suffixes to words only impresses folk who think lofty sounding vocabulary means something. You hear it a LOT from politicians and academics, to the point of ludicriciocty. For example, "Religiocity" like it sounds more impressive than "Faith," ONLY to the form over function crowd. 

There's a corner it's REALLY easy to paint yourself into. The belief expertise in one field transfers to another. A person may have a natural talent or knack for a skill. For example my little sister has a natural talent for writing, she can express herself well in most genre and forms, it just flows from her pen. Her first drafts are better than my finals after heavy editing. She rarely even finds a spelling or grammatical error to correct.

It took her a couple few years to get good at restoring sewing machines. Her S.O. at the time picked it up the first time he opened one up but he was a marginally functional literate. 

So, telling us how long it took you to teach yourself how to work on bicycles in detail doesn't cross over to how long it's going to take you to teach yourself: blacksmithing, bladesmithing and armor making, doesn't cross over. And heck those are three different skills but those have enough cross over to blear if you try learning them at the same time making it harder to gain proficiency.

Oh, what I started to say about communications then got sidetracked (a TBI issue) is about how you replied to my last post. Inserting responses in a quote makes it illegible, early to the point of gibberish. When you're communicating you want to express yourself, not make the reader have to work hard to dig out your words. Remember we CAN'T know what you mean. We can ONLY know what you say. If you bury what you want to say in useless filler words and glitzy sounding wordiocity you lose audience and meaning.

Yeah, I get windy, I blame the tree!

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Get a great job that you make gobs of money at  that allows for you to take of a lot of time to train..  Live at home to take advantage of the parents supporting the whole shabangs.. Or race enough that you start making gains and get noticed by a sponsor..  This top elite status is limited to only a very few..  I wish you luck on this endeavor.. 

You keep coming back to being  alone.. Or doing it yourself..    

This is the slowest way of doing or learning anything..  The slowest way to learn, to grow to expand..     Unless you are meditating.. 

Not to boost my own self, but I didn't feel all to encouraged while in school, Middle school or high school for that matter..  I droppped out.. Not afraid to say it. I was a drop out.. 

I got a crappy job which funded my blacksmithing/blade smithing..        I wasn't being engaged in school and was one of those that fell through the cracks..  I wasn't great at following the rules ( they) power people put in rules  that didn't make any sense to me so just didn't bother and no one took the time to explain it to me..  Had 1 great teacher in 2nd grade.. 

I didn't know how to communicate in a way that I could tell them what I needed to be a better student...They would "TELL" me vs converse..      I'd get A's on all my tests, participate in class knowing the material.. but I refused to do homework or keep a note book..   LOL..    Why did I need to do either if I was doing well in class...   Funny looking back at it now as I was so lost but really didn't have a great support system.. 

I eventually got my GED and went to college.. 

So,  the best way to get ahead in life is to work with other like minded people who share a common goal..  Todays learning/teaching/schooling systems are much different than 35 years ago..  The other way to get ahead is to be an innovator or to create the market to sell to.. 

One needs to drop the chip on the shoulder and be humble..   The great " look at what I can do thing" is kind of old though sometimes it has to be dragged up just to show what one can do to sway the neigh Sayers..  Disbelief and all..   

By the way.. I like the Merlin TV show..  It's pretty benign, with at least a good moral to the story usually..  I like the old shows for that very reason.. 

Ranchmanben...    In the picture I had seen of you.. You are pretty lean.. Wasn't sure it was a Cowboy thing..    but it all makes sense now.. 

Downhill out your way is a lot different than downhill here..   Most hills here are maybe 1000 to 2000ft tall and getting up to 30mph is a struggle except on short runs..  Few long sections can get 50mph but it's rare. on DH or MTB...  The reason I mention speeds is speed = air time..  I love jumps and drops..  2 years ago I took a 20ft header.. I rolled out of it with my body armor on... LOL>.  

I never raced professionally..  just enjoyed the sport..   As with all things I was into long suspensions 10 years ago before the enduro bikes came on the scene.. My trail bike has 175mm front suspension and 145 rear..     in a 29" tire size..      Everybody used to shake their head when they saw my bike and say??  What do you need that kind of suspension for... LOL..   It's very rocky here with lots a gnar..and rock gardens.. 

I used to be pretty fast but have slowed so much now it's just a fun thing.. work keeps me from going to the park and barely have time to ride.. I get out few times a year now.. 

 

[King Arthur of Camelot]

Nice dude. I myself ride an upgraded Schwinn Protocol 2.7, a $350 amazon bike. My setup is a 130mm Marzocchi AM1 air fork with rebound and compression damping control (the rebound knob is quite loose actually, I need to fix that), a 165mm i2i manitou swinger spv on the rear, a deore 8 speed hub with a 40-11t wide ratio cassette, SRAM X01 DH 7 speed derailleur (I know what youre thinking "7 speed derailleur with an 8 speed cassete? What are you thinking!?" I don't use my highest gear, so I'm not bothering with an 8 speed derailleur.). I also have a bb30 type crankset made for a 68mm width threaded shell, with a soon to be 32t elliptical chainring (its 36t right now).

There are only five (or six?) things on this bike that are still stock. The front brake, the seatpost, the saddle, the rims, the front hub, and the left shifter (I kept it after the 1x conversion to use the derailleur as a chain guide. Gonna ditch it though for a better brake lever.) But, while you may say "well, thats good and all, but it is still a schwinn," I say that it beats a Specialized stump jumper on the downhill, and will on the uphill when I get that 32t oval. This thing would do 30mph consistently if I had the skills.

I also dropped out. I was tired of not being challenged intellectually, and being treated like an idiot. Literally, the only thing that ever did challenge me properly was math, and there are only two teachers who did it right (they made it fun and easy, but still left you to figure most of it out), my 8th grade and 10th grade teachers. It got to the point where I was able to make equations for my teacher to simplify and solve, so I could then see the techniques she used.

Im still trying to get a job, but I'm unable to work in an extremely fast paced environment (I get overwhelmed easily in busy places), or in jobs that require a lot of heavy lifting, cause I'm just not that strong at all. I opted to try and be a mechanic for one of the shops in town, but either nobody is hiring, or nobody wants me despite my knowledge (and despite what my bike is now). It sucks being a guy with coping issues without even a GED. It really does.

*It should be noted that the entire time I was in school, I was on pharmaceutical "medicines" that hindered my progress. I probably would have tested out of school had I not been, but hey, who's to know now?*

[jlpservicesinc]

Duddet actually..  

Your bike upgrades are typical for someone in search of the most from their bike.. Your lucky enough to have the skill set.. 

Dropping out because you are not being challenged....   If you are not being challenged pick harder courses... Start helping others by Tutoring..  If you are that knowledgeble why waste it by keeping it to yourself.. There is a lot of people out there that can use your help.. 

I'm not a go to college and get a job kind of person.. but the averages of what people make per hour are still higher for people who have gone to college..  

Unless you plan on living sub standard which many do and do it well everything cost money..   I'm guessing your 17 or 18...  

Go get you GED.. Take classes.. There is a center in your town I imagine..  Call the school  or local social worker..   

Took me about 6 months to get my GED taking night courses.. Lots of this kind of thing is online now.. 

Be a liver of life vs a by stander..        

When it comes to work at a bike shop..  Don't go in looking to be a mechanic.. Go in and sweep floors.. Do it for no pay.. Tell them you are open to learn..  Most bike mechanics today to to bike school and their knowledge might be different than yours.. they might have a better or worse way but this is where you can help vs think less of.. 

Where there is a will.. there is a way..  I used to walk the 10 miles  each way to and from the GED center.. It started in Sept and got out in the end of february..   After awhile people would see me and give me a ride.... 

Good luck with your journey..  Many Blessings be upon you.. 

[King Arthur of Camelot]

1 hour ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Duddet actually..

My bad, it's not easy to tell gender from a screen name, unless said name makes it obvious.

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Dropping out because you are not being challenged....   If you are not being challenged pick harder courses... Start helping others by Tutoring..  If you are that knowledgeble why waste it by keeping it to yourself.. There is a lot of people out there that can use your help..

I wish I could have chosen my courses. Unfortunately, I was placed into a special education program for the simple reason that I was on medications. By their reasoning, because I was on medications, I was mentally impaired with a learning disability....

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 I'm guessing your 17 or 18...

23 actually. Yeah, sad, isn't it?

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When it comes to work at a bike shop..  Don't go in looking to be a mechanic.. Go in and sweep floors.. Do it for no pay.. Tell them you are open to learn..  Most bike mechanics today to to bike school and their knowledge might be different than yours.. they might have a better or worse way but this is where you can help vs think less of.. 

This is actually the best advice I've gotten from anyone in terms of getting into a shop. The only things I really have yet to learn is wheel building, suspension repair, and brake repair. I would actually like to work at the very shop I go to when I'm not able to fix something myself.

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Good luck with your journey..  Many Blessings be upon you.. 

Thanks! May you live a life of fortune!

[Frosty]

8 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

I used to walk the 10 miles  each way to and from the GED center.. It started in Sept and got out in the end of february..

Through snow, uphill both ways? 

6 hours ago, King Arthur of Camelot said:

23 actually. Yeah, sad, isn't it?

Nah, you'll never be this young again. I remember turning 25 thinking I'd seen some stuff, now at 66 I can attest to how little I've seen and done. Life ahead of you is what counts and it just gets bigger as you learn what to look for.

We all have our challenges and issues, I'm a TBI survivor and it can be a serious PITA. Life without challenge is just processing food and air.

Do you read science fiction? I highly recommend Robert Anson Heinlein, "Glory Road" is one of my favorites. "Dum vivimus vivamus," is the name of Oscar's sword and is Latin meaning, "While I live let me LIVE!"

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty combination of flats with some hills.. I used to walk everywhere as I had no transport..  Wasn't complaining just stating the facts..   And yes for sure in the snow.. I live in MA after all and it can both get snowy, icey and cold..     Cold more than likely being warm compared to AK..  Taking the old RR bed was the straightest and fastest route but no lights and awfully spooky..


Age, doesn't matter is one is patient, open minded and willing to take criticism with the praise..   To many just want praise today without the hard work that goes along with job..

I am my own worst critic as no one can judge anything as harshly as me... Honest appraisal of ones work is a huge stepping stone to making a better forged item..

Arthur go check out my video channel  the tapers video and the peening videos for hammer control.. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8WRbArfgi8kSaDek7kh_1Q

[Frosty]

I was just twitting you Jennifer, I only walked about 2.5 miles each way to school with my neighborhood friends in S. Cal. You reminded me of the stories Father used to tell about how far he walked to school in the snow, and how glad he was to do it. I think most folks my age have heard a version of that story from our folks WITH snow and we've included the "uphill both ways," to express we are aware of their exaggerations. 

Weird thing though, I was talking to my Uncle Fred the middle brother, Dad was the youngest. During the depression everything was hard scrabble, everybody worked and the money went in the cookie jar to support the household. The first year or so Dad was too small to hold much of a job so he collected bark from logs rafted in Lake Washington to dry and sell for stove wood. Picture a 6-7 yr old kid jumping from log to log on a lake with a home made bark spud in one hand and a gunnysack in the other. Once dried a gunnysack of bark was worth a nickle for stove wood. Dad's brothers said he did okay, dropped maybe a quarter a week in the cookie jar. He was too young to carry a whole gunnysack of wet bark so it took a couple few trips for the nickle. Uncle Frank had already passed when Uncle Fred told us the story and it explained why it'd get Dad going so bad when Uncle Frank called him little barky.

The only time Dad got off was on school days. Sooo, I guess he really did appreciate walking to school in the cold, rain or snow. 

When he was 8 he got a better job. Sharpening plow shears on a 50 lb. Little Giant power hammer. That kind of explains why he actively discouraged me from blacksmithing, hobby or not, doesn't it?

Right, it's not the time, it's the miles. It's not just today's folks who think skills don't require work, I remember some of the guys who worked for Dad saying things like, "If I had that lathe, spinning tool, (pick a device) I could do that." The guys I used to work with thought getting a lathe in the drill shop meant they were machinists. The worst was when they couldn't do a basic function say make a straight cut, they'd adjust the lathe! I was always having to reset the tail stock to 0 and the final feed was usually obviously off. I caught one of them before he took the gear box apart because the speed control didn't work.  He didn't know what the feed rate calculator was let alone what it was for. Wasn't about to let me show him how to use it either, he took an extension course metal shop class.

I had to buy my own lathe cutters and keep them locked up to keep them from being burned beyond salvage, same with the 7" Craftsman bench grinder I bought and built a locking box around. Not about to let me show them how to sharpen a cutter, drill bit, etc. Oh no, can't do that, they had seniority. It took me almost a week to realize the monkeys I worked with were going to use the new grindstones to try and make their welds look okay, sharpen beat to pieces axes, etc. Everybody just HAD to find something to grind on the new grinder!

Made the state buy new wheels, lathe cutter blanks, etc. when I forgot one in or on the lathe and it got trashed or forgot the lock on the grinder.

It isn't kids NOW DAYS, Dunning Kruger effect has been instinct for humans since before we lost our pelts. On the other hand every now and then an idea or opinion unpolluted by knowledge turns out to be THE thing.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty, I love the stories you tell..    Almost like an ol fashioned sueth sayer..  Or oral historian.. 

I knew you were joshin about the uphill both ways.. It's an old one.. My gram mother lived 10miles by road or 2.5 by woods to get to school and she told me the buses would get stuck in front of the house and had to be dragged out with the horses so it was just easier to walk over the hill threw the woods to school..   She would tell us about walking to school and one day my Dad said not to listen as it was uphill both ways and the snow was waste deep..  

The oral tradition of story telling has for a lot gone away.. My Brothers kids when staying with my Mom would get and ear full as to how we growd up.. 

Gypsies and born on the road.. I've seen many a sight and maybe it's where I got my work ethics from..  I certainly know what a dollar is worth and also appreciate someones hard work.. 

I'd say it's maybe my best quality.. 

Thanks so much for sharing again.. I really do love it.    It takes a certain kind of person to share like that.. I could picture it all in vivid color..  Splendid.. Simply splendid.. Thanks again.  

[Frosty]

Awww. <blush> You aught to get me going over coffee sometime, that'd cure you. I've always been a likable bull shooter. I find willing audiences here and I get to pass on some of the stuff I've picked up over the years.

Traveler? Really or figure of speech? 

We kids learned work ethic from our parents hard scrabble depression era selves. People who couldn't find a job weren't looking or were worthless. ANY job is better than no job. It's easy to keep a job, show up early, do what you're told, don't cause trouble and leave a little late. 5 minutes early makes you a GOOD employee most places and if the boss has to shout at you so s/he can lock the door at closing you're top shelf. It won't be long before YOU have a key. 

The longest I've ever been out of work were the couple times I wanted to take time off and do something but I always had money in the bank. The longest it took to find a job was 2 weeks but I was being picky. They haven't always worked out, I've quit, been fired, laid off once in a non-seasonal position. I made SURE the boss knew I have bunch of useful skills, being a welder kept me on the payroll more than any other skill but surprisingly being a draftsman came in close second. When you're hired to rake grade for a paving company and it turns out you can read blueprints better than the guys in charge they find ways to keep you on or call you back first.  I couldn't convince them to have me look at the prints BEFORE they bid jobs though, I was the last non-family member employee once and last regular another.

The more skills you have the less likely you'll be out of work or as my folks said till I was sick of hearing it, "You have to have a fall back." Just because you have a job doesn't mean you shouldn't be learning another!

I gotta stop or I'll be spouting family aphorisms, they had a million of em. Don't want to take the glint off my splendiferousness you know.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

"Extra Skills" can really pay off; back when a previous employer was in it's death spiral; I was working as lab support and my being able to scrounge equipment from the "recycle boxes" and do basic metalwork to convert a nonstandard rack to hold standard rack components and getting a chassis to work after it was hit by a forklift; meant I held my good high paying job longer during the dot com bust.

On the other hand I've worked the line in a factory to feed my family; not too proud of my college degree to do blue collar work.