Is the 2x72 belt grinder worth the upfront cost?

[Seabass]

As you can tell by my profile, I am what you would call, "the noobiest of noobs."  I have been intrigued by this craft for a while now. Me and my dad built our own forge using a 40 gallon propane tank cut longways  and insulated with gravel. I have the beginning tools to start: hammer, mounted anvil, forge, tongs, PPE, and stock, but something that I really want and would be a HUGE benefit to me would be a belt grinder or a belt sander (to the best of my knowledge they are synonymous. Please correct me if that is not the case.) So my question is, is it worth it to fork out the money for the 2x72 belt grinder upfront, or should I get a smaller one from somewhere like Harbor Freight (maybe a 4x36 or something like it.) to start. Also, where is the ideal place to get belts? I have been looking around and I found the link below that seems to contain 72 belts for $165. This seems like a great deal to me but I'm sure y'all with more experience will shed some light on this. 

[commercial link removed]

Thank you all so much in advance,

Seabass

Edited October 18, 2018 by Mod34
Commercial link removed per TOS

[Lou L]

This question (well, a similar one) has come up recently.  I’ll link to that thread because my response to the options available to you is too long to redo and I like to work smarter, not harder!   https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/59937-belt-grinder/

   A grinder is certainly useful for a number of tasks but it isn’t necessary by any stretch.  Files, a rasp, a disk grinder and clean forging are all replacements.  Clean forging is a bit idealistic   People will come here to ask you, “What type of work do you intend to do and what is your budget?”  These are the two biggest factors in your decision making.  If you can afford a 2x72 no problem then don’t bother typing a lengthy response, just read up on the types and options, pick one, and buy it.   They are great tools to own.  Otherwise, look at the other options I suggest in the linked thread.

Concerning belts, I wouldn’t buy a huge amount of one type of belt.  There are plenty of websites on which you can shop for belts of all types.  You will want various grits and backings for different jobs.  Some low grit belts with a heavy backing are great for roughing out shapes.  Higher grit belts with various degrees of flexibility are great for finishing work.  Buying a load of one type of belt will be inconvenient.  Even if the deal you linked has a mix of belts (I admit I didn’t check) it is unlikely to have what you need.  If it is a variety pack and you have the cash then it may work out as a good way to try out a variety of belts so you can educate yourself on their uses.

Hmmm...I just realized that my entire response could be summed up as “it depends”.  I feel stupid now  

 

[ThomasPowers]

What type of work do you intend to do and what is your budget?

A belt grinder is to a belt sander as a hack saw is to a wood saw.

Not knowing the answers to the first questions makes it impossible to answer your core question; except that you won't need one to start out; it's sort of like: "I'm just learning to drive---should I buy a Maserati?"

Spending excess pelf on good tongs and good books will get you further along.  Perhaps you can put a dollar in the "belt grinder fund" everytime you sell something and so have paid for it by the time you really need it.

[Seabass]

12 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

What type of work do you intend to do and what is your budget?

So as I said, I am young. Any money I earn is put directly into a savings account by my parents. They won't let me spend any of it but this has also conditioned me very well for my future. It isn't too bad. With that being said, most of what I will be getting will be either gifted to me, be something that my dad can get from work, something cheap, or something we can make. As for work I would like to try my hand in stock removal first before I start forging because I want to get some experience in the actual knife finishing so that when I actually start forging, I will have some experience in the finishing aspect. I also will use it for knife making and shaping in general as well as handle shaping too.

 

12 hours ago, Lou L said:

Even if the deal you linked has a mix of belts (I admit I didn’t check) it is unlikely to have what you need.  If it is a variety pack and you have the cash then it may work out as a good way to try out a variety of belts so you can educate yourself on their uses.

The deal has a mix of 36 grit ceramic belts, 120 grit ceramic belts, 180 grit aluminum oxide belts, and 400 grit aluminum oxide finishing belts.

 

Thank you for your speedy responses,

Seabass

[John in Oly, WA]

In the "something we can make" category, you can make a 2 x 72 belt grinder. Many people have, including myself. I built one from a used treadmill I bought for $50 and two sizes of square tube - one fit into the other. Total cost was about $200 with the wheels, square tube, pillow blocks, pulley shaft and other odds and ends.

Your belt deal is missing a few grits I would find useful - 80, 220, and 320

[ThomasPowers]

Stock removal does not mean knifemaking; sculpture is often "stock removal"; as is wood carving.  So the answer is "I plan to make knives."  You might research the Neo-Tribal Metalsmiths as their goal was to forge to shape and do less than 10% stock removal often by draw filing.  (Look at some of their knife filing jigs!) Also look at the blades done by Stormcrow (who posts on ifi)

If you plan to make blades at some time you most likely will need a belt grinder.  However getting one too early can cause problems as they are DANGEROUS tools and it's generally good to get experience and the fine motor skills using tools that won't cause life changing injuries quite so easily.

Have you looked at taking any classes at an ABS (American Bladesmith Society) Schools? 

Also learning to smith is the start of learning to bladesmith---just like if you want to race cars, you are advised to learn to drive *first*! Luckily you can set up a forge for very little money---I did a beginners set up for under US$25 once: forge, blower, anvil, basic tools---good forge too it was my primary billet welding forge for several years!  I strongly urge you to find the closest ABANA affiliate and attend meetings there!

Finally, with Christmas/Hanuka/Festival of Lights/...  You might ask the parental units for BOOKS on the subject: Steve Sells "Introduction to Knifemaking" (ifi member), James Hrisoulas "The Complete Bladesmith" (ifi member) and perhaps Alexander Weyger's "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" as a getting started smithing book.

p.s. Don't believe everything posted on youtube!  Check to see if the person/video you want to base things on is considered good or bogus *first*!

[Steve Sells]

14 minutes ago, John in Oly, WA said:

 belt deal is missing a few grits I would find useful - 80, 220, and 320

no need for 80 when you have 36 &120

180 is close enough to 220 so forgot that one also,  tho actually I dont use 180  I just use the 220

Same for 320.  no need as 180 to 400 covers it, Just because a grit is made by someone does not mean we need to use it

[John in Oly, WA]

That is true Steve, just because a grit is made doesn't mean we have to use it, but I like to go up in smaller increments. I find it works better for my style -that's why I framed it in what "I would find useful."

[Buzzkill]

Personal preference comes into play here for sure.  I'm a big fan of the 80 grit ceramic belts for general use as well as blade making.  To me it's at a good spot for removing material fairly quickly without leaving deep scratches.  At a minimum I'd want one lower grit (about half) and one higher grit (about double) for the grinder.  For me once you get close to the 200 grit range it's not as much of a chore to move to hand sanding, but in general the more work you can do on the machine, the less time you'll spend by hand.

[John in Oly, WA]

But bottom line for me with the value of a 2 x 72 belt grinder, much like my little MIG welder, I got along fine for a long time without one, but ever since having one, it's become one of the most used tools in my shop. Disclaimer: I fit into the "the more I weld (and forge), the better grinder I'm becoming" category." LOL

[Ranchmanben]

You might take a look at a bench grinder with a multi tool attachment. Though I’m finally at a point of looking at 2x72 grinders, you can do a lot, and I have, on a 2x36 grinder

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

We have a 2X36 trick tools belt grinder mounted on a 3/4 hp bench grinder. It has been a real workhorse and gets used a lot however it does have it's drawbacks. We just purchased a KMG 2x72 belt grinder and it is more powerful 1 1/2 hp and more versatile with different wheels & table. The cost also reflects that at 7 times the money ($250 vs $1750) as ordered.

[Billy Salyers]

I started with a cheap 2x36 but decided to make my own 2x72 grinder from scratch. It's not, mechanically speaking, a complex build, but it needs to be fairly precise to work well. That being said, it probably cut my finishing time by 60% compared to the grinder I was using. I wouldn't want to go without one, but we have to remember that smiths were doing fine work with little more than hammers and files long before fancy grinders came along.

 

As with anything, find what works for you, and do the best with what you have until you feel like you can do better. Finding someone who has experience and wisdom is one of the best ways to learn as well, and a side benefit is that you can use their stuff while they teach you.

[MotoMike]

I built mine.  had a motor already and bought the steel and wheels.  I think I'm in it around $200.  

 

[jason0012]

A 2x72 is very much worthwhile. I bought a grizzly about two years ago and am kicking myself for not buying one 15 years ago. With these machines you get what you pay for and the uber expensive machines are actually better. Unless you are a professional full time blade grinder spending 10 hrs a day with the machine, you won't really need the top shelf machine. These are really simple machines and easy enough to build yourself as well. There are numerous good designs online.

[Frosty]

On 10/18/2018 at 4:13 PM, MotoMike said:

I think I'm in it around $200.  

 

Mine has about $80 of my money . . . If I don't count the almost $80 I spent converting a treadmill motor only to discover it was super sensitive to dust and shorted out.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Latticino]

A good grinder is a pleasure to work with; quiet fast stock removal with accurate tracking and easy belt changing mechanisms are a wonderful luxury.  I have worked my way up from a cobbled together 4 x 36, to a vintage 4 x 106 wet belt grinder that I used to use in my glass studio, to a partially homebuilt KMG style 2 x 72 with a 1.5 HP motor and VFD, to a real quality machine: a used TW-90.  Each increment has allowed me to finish work better and more efficiently, but I can still finish a knife with a couple of files and some sandpaper.  Its a trade off, as usual, your time for cash (in both directions I guess).  Only you can decide which one is worth more to you.  There are certainly a lot of good options out there these days.

[MotoMike]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

... it was super sensitive to dust and shorted out...

 

I used an on hand surplus air compressor motor.  I don't know how sensitive it is, but I do know that these big belt grinders generate a lot of dust.  It seems to get everywhere.  I did not count the cost of that motor but In fact I did buy it with the compressor about 18 years ago.  

[Frosty]

I discovered I had a 1.5hp AC motor in a box I picked up at a moving sale. The one that didn't work came out of a treadmill, 3.5hp DC. I don't think it was intended to run in a dirty environment let alone my shop. It never got mounted to the grinder, just getting the AC > DC and speed control wired up and checking it ran the correct direction and it sucked enough metal dust to kill it. 

I had the isolation box and filters under construction but it was just too vulnerable. However shorting to death so soon may be why it was being sold. Plug it in, turn it on and trip a breaker. 

Lots of guys have good results using DC treadmill motors and you can sure as heck get them cheaper than I did, I see them in the local Craigslist in the freebie section. I'm still finding pieces of that old treadmill and don't need more.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[JHCC]

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

I don't think it was intended to run in a dirty environment

More like a sweaty environment.

[Buzzkill]

Nah, I think most treadmill manufacturers are well aware that the average treadmill will become another place to hang clothes or "temporarily" stack boxes rather than actually have someone walking or running on it.  They are much more likely to get dusty than sweaty over time.

[Frosty]

Nah, I wasn't sweating the wiring so that wasn't it. I don't think the manufacturers worry about heat in the motor too much. However it is mounted in a relatively closed box with two large area surfaces and a moving belt to drag air in. I don't think dust is an issue used as intended. 

Frosty The Lucky.