jlpservicesinc Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I'm starting this thread as an off shoot on another thread and ideally will cover what I considered as finished for the work I do.. finished forged, finished filed, finished with coating/paint.. The reason I am starting this thread is: The level of what is considered a finished forging can vary so much with regards to experience, level of care (or the enough is enough)... I hear people talk often about what is good enough.. This is a heated question or statement depending on who you talk with.. The other reason is: A beginner will rarely have the same level of finished forging as someone who is very experienced.. Yet a very experienced blacksmith might decide that the item they forged is good enough for the purpose so others will wonder why it's not a finished item.. Blacksmithing and standards are like oil and water and looking at common ground for all is like reading a newspaper from every town in every state in the USA.. All with different stories and different flavors.. ABANA has a standardized manual, And each upper level person who teaches also has a standard.. Sadly, because of not being a word smith. I usually sound curt and ill willed.. This is far from the case.. I love working with new students and love to teach what I know to others.. This also plays into a sliding scale and as with all things done by hand there are some more talented than others, some that don't care about standards nor care about the level of work they do.. The other side of the spectrum is to care so much that the person freezes for the fear of failure.. There is nothing special about blacksmithing per say or it doesn't take special magic that only a few possess.. It's usually a lot of hard work and lots and lots of practice.. Getting proper instruction can transform someone into a forging rock star in short order.. With practice.. So here are a series of pictures with both an old item made and a newer item made.. I usually forge to my own designs with customization for what I am doing. All of the items but the thumb latchs are customized.. The level of finish for each can raise a question as to what or why.. I have always been driven to forge to 99% finished and then just a touch up with a file if possible.. The strive for perfection is based on vintage items made that represent pretty high order of finished items.. Typically surgical tools, hardware, knives, swords, guns. etc, etc.. There is a point where what it costs to finish it more just becomes cost prohibitive if it is a salable item.. This is the reason for forging till near finish.. For me an item that looks factory made when I am finished is what I consider to be a well made item as long as it doesn't have forging defects.. A hand forged item will always show that it was hand forged if the person knows what they are looking for.. Production blacksmithing becomes a matter of being able to get repeatable results time and time again.. I hope people won't be put off by this thread.. Ideally it's not about what I think is finished but what others also construed as finished. The only new items here are the 2 hammers and the larger thumb latch and the larger bolt tongs everything else is between 20 and 40 years old.. You guys can decide for yourself which item you like more in each picture.. Please comment as to which item and why you like it or dislike it.. Please add your own items that you find appealing or not.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think you pose a good question Jennifer. Much comes down to personal preference and skill level. I personally like stuff to look old. I feel like if I make something that could pass as a handle or latch on the shelf at Lowe's than I might as well go there an buy one. I'm not a fan of forging things and putting hammer marks all over it to make it have the "forged" look, but leaving production marks naturally as you make something is what tells people this thing was forged in a fire and hammered on an anvil. I think what you might be getting at is that people with decades of experience might challenge themselves to make pieces that look like factory made pieces just as something to strive for. I'm ok with that and I"m even ok with the smith who has that as a goal. It's sorta like the smith who makes a knife with a mirror finish and ground to perfection. I like the looks of a well made Bowie knife that looks like it could be 200 or 250 years old. But there again, that's personal preference speaking. I suppose you could make two identical knives: one with a mirror finish and one that looks 250 years old. Which is considered finished? I think the answer would be both. The other question would be which is considered finished to my preference? That'd be the one that looks 250 years old. My preference wouldn't make one more finished than the other. Then one must also consider the purpose of the forged item. Something quick and dirty to be used in the shop doesn't require meticulous finish work like a door latch that's a reproduction for a historic house or museum. I needed lantern hooks because we lose power a lot at my house, so I spent some time on them but they aren't elegant but functionable. I could have done all sorts of scroll work on them, but I just didn't really want all that. My dining room is very simple and they are mounted on hand hewed beams so I was going for more of a homestead look to them - utilitarian so to speak. I'm glad I made them simple because the fit the decor. The one I make for the living room is going to be more like a fireplace crane so that will be fancier because my living room is a little more fancy. I hope that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 From my own perspective, my current preferences tend to gravitate toward a more finished, detailed appearance, but still possessing enough hand-crafted "character" to differentiate an object from a machine-made, mass-produced item. Another way of putting it is that I appreciate a piece that demonstrates a high level of skill and dedication while still celebrating the maker as an "individual." By the way, I love the larger Suffolk latch in the first photo. I have a strong historical bias from my history, archaeology, and antique home restoration background, and I've always admired the fine work that smiths have been capable of producing from the dawn of metalworking onward to the present. That said, there are situational/contextual factors that intervene, and I sometimes find myself admiring simpler, more crudely finished, less-sophisticated objects that tell different, but still compelling stories about the makers and how the objects were made and used, and under what circumstances. I think that the idea of a "story" behind an object can be important. What can an object tell you about its maker? What can you learn from it? How do you relate to it? What kind of role did/does the object have in someone's life? I think that an object that was turned out quickly and crudely can sometimes be very interesting if I know something about its maker, the maker's intent, and the context of its manufacture. There are many dimensions to "taste" and those dimensions and their relative priorities are not necessarily static in an individual. When it comes to appreciating the work of others, I find my tastes and interests evolving over time and becoming more complex, less narrow, and, for lack of a better term at this time, less judgmental. On the other hand, regarding my own personal construction and fabrication projects, I've always had a tendency to "polish" the results and pay a lot of attention to detail, and I fully expect that tendency to carry over into my blacksmithing work as I gradually become more adept at it. That's in keeping with some aspects of my own character, and I like to see my own character reflected in my work. I can look at something I made and say, "Yes, that's a bit of my "self" that I see there." Thanks for posting this topic, Jennifer. It should get a lot of interesting responses. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Well said Steamboat, well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 my finish level improves with my experience. I at this time don't think I can pull off the finished work shown. a draw knife is in my near future so we'll see. Incidentally Jennifer, the pickup tongs used your tutorial on splitting stock to make tongs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranchmanben Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 This is a tough question. In my personal work I strive to make something that’s consistent enough to be factory made without the finish work. Smooth surfaces with as little scale as possible. I’m my own worst critic and so I very seldom forge something that I’m truly satisfied with. There’s always a little too much scale or something’s not quite straight enough. Basically my work is never “finished”, just finished enough because at some point you’ve got to call it quits. These tongs are a decent example of the finish that I like vs another level of finish I did on a set of dividers that are a copy of a vintage set of CS Osborne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think as long as your criticalness of your work doesn't rob you of your joy forging, than you are ok. If you can't be proud of what you create and enjoy forging it then why forge at all? Finishing is part of that process. If in pursuing that perfect finishing you are left frustrated and unable to be proud of what you've just forged, it could be detrimental to your enjoyment as well. I'm guessing a well rounded blacksmith can achieve whatever finish he or she desires. If it's a rustic chandelier with some scale and a few hammer marks, or a chandelier fit for a fancy ballroom, the well rounded smith can do either with ease I imagine. It's something to strive for. I think sometimes you get so far sucked down the rabbit hole of perfect finishes that you can struggle to make a reproduction of a rustic piece. I imagine some just refuse to make anything not finished perfectly and that's one way of dealing with this issue while others are the polar opposite and don't even try to excel at finishing all the while proclaiming the a true hand forged item should look rustic. Right now I'm solidly in the rustic category due to lack of refinement skills I hope to acquire those along the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 My goodness you like to pose questions on subjective subjects don't you? Just the term "finish" means different things on the same item: Forged finish, Surface/texture finish eg. brushed, filed, polished, Coating/Preservative finish: oiled, plated, painted. If you're doing this as a professional there is only one real answer, the customer is ALMOST always right IF you can pull it off. My preference is fine hammer work unless the end user wants hammer marks then I'll put in hammer marks. For you new guys the secret to minimizing hammer marks and say mushrooming edges is correct them as soon as they start to form, not when the piece is finished or close. Little problems grow into big ones, keep ahead. Texture depends on the piece and end user's preference. Mine general preference is power brushed and waxed. Sanded for highlights is often called for especially when brass brushed. Customer's choice of course. If it needs filing file it. HOT rasping is a powerful tool a smith should have in their mental tool box. Ben's finish on his tongs is about what I like for my shop tools and his dividers are right there too. I have dividers and calipers of my Fathers from the 20s and 30s, one looks to be hand made and the finish is a weathered match. So that's my preferred finish level. Appropriate for the job and the end user's desire. And yes, I will tell a customer they're asking for the wrong thing and explain why. I have refused a commission on those grounds, I won't make unsafe. Remember the old saw. Faster, Better, Easier, Cheaper. Improve one improve profit margin. Quality is synonymous with better, it can't diminish or . . . Sigh. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 Simple. It totally depends on the smith and the job. Nothing more. If you want to debate degrees and levels of anything you have mentioned above, that's a different question,,, with no answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 Because I am a history buff and have looked at hundreds of old pieces I started to see a very unique and very consistent result in all items produced.. There is an errand item here or there that makes one wonder but for the most part it is all things very consistent.. But with this said.. The quality of hand forgings were much better in the finished state in the olden days.. Look at Yellins work.. Or Francis Whittakers work.. I"m not saying we don't make great finished forgings now.. But that there is so much variation.. "How does one know what a good or bad finished forging is"? I literally have seen time and time again where the forging and finishing ability and time were committed to a certain item and this was based on the Smiths desire to make a high quality item despite what the customer is asking for.. Common everyday items.. Forks, knives, spoons, boot scrapers, bolts, axes, etc, etc.. All items used to be forged or cast.. Wagon seat.. Or an axle.. People forget that at one point everything was hand made and was the reason for Guilds, apprenticeships, journeyman journyies etc, etc.. A Master smith would not let an apprentice out till the apprentice had a certain skill set nearly mastered.. You read the old instruction manuals or talk with people who have been through the training programs and they all say the same thing about a certain level of finish. If we talk artistically about finishes this can change the notion of acceptable to mean no finish at all and just pushed or crushed metal surfaces.. I"m not really talking about these unless you want to... Surface decoration has been around for a very long time.. Again if you or anybody looks at what people who are considered to be in the "Know" are producing there is a reason why others look up to them.. Is it the ease with which they forge the product.. Is it the ease at which they swing a hammer.. Is it the ascetics of how the item looks? I'm not the best to judge what others do since i have a definitive idea of what I like, but I also have a very large sliding scale for time someone has been forging, but there is a point where the finish matches what was forged.. Every body does it.. . There is a certain common thing that everybody does when they see a forging or a knife or scroll or car or boat or what ever and it looks right to the person.. That just right amount of finish for that item forged.. Again.. I always look the potential of what historically was produced and then try to strive towards what was being done for the last 1000 years as common place vs special.. Trade vs artistic smithing.. Look at Tom Latane' work or others that are doing high end forgings that are clean, well forged and finished.. Is there somebodies work that you looked at and went " Wow, I wish I could forge like that and have such a clean product"? Everybody needs inspiration.. Everybody needs to see items that are well forged and finished.. This creates a standard from which they then judge their own work.. Today with the internet and web.. You can view somebodies work, be inspired and never ever meet them.. Yet they have helped you to see differently and inspired you to want to make better forgings.. Those pickup tongs made by MotoMike.. Or the tongs made by RanchmanBen or the dividers.. I can assume.. (LOL) We can all agree these are great looking forgings with the appropriate level of finish.. What inspired you guys to want to do this level of forge work? To finish the forging that way? Anvil, what inspired you to finish the hand rails to the level you did.. I doubt it was the customer who told you that you needed to learn to forge better to be able to do Dimensional forgings.. Or the trowel you showed or the bolts and nuts you made for the anvil block... Or to not forge any item to your standard though only you will see it.. There is a reason WHY.. you want to forge to a certain finish irrespective of others.. Frosty.. Everthing I have ever seen you talk about or have heard you mention or design has always been to the 9's with plenty of R&D and refinement.. What or who drives you to want to finish to those levels? Steamboat (Al) Same thing here... All the forgings I have seen you produce or the gas forge or coal forge or vise stand is top notch? Why? This thread is not about putting oil on a forged item as a finish.. This thread was started because of a lack of unification yet being unified with how a forging looks and the level of finish put into a forging.. Here are 2 hammers.. Which if more inspiring.. Which is finished better? There is no wrong answer.. It's just a question.. "If you could forge either hammer.. What would you choose? ".. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 To answer your specific question on the hammers, the one on the left is more "finished" in my eyes. You took the additional time with the flatter, grinder, file, whatever to remove the fuller marks on the cheeks and pein. But, this level of detail also brings it closer to the appearance of "factory made" spectrum. To some, the fuller marks add character to the piece and proudly proclaim that it is hand made. To others, it is a sign of quick and sloppy work. Does it affect how the hammer functions? Does it make one better than the other? Not at all. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. I've heard that the level of acceptability for smiths from 100 years ago was to not leave hammer marks and rough surfaces. Whatever the trend of the day is seems to dictate what is acceptable, and every customer is looking for something different, even if you are that customer. As the person making the piece, we will always see the flaws and the part will never be truly finished in our eyes. But we must be able to see when a part is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I think we are missing a key point here. Back 100 or 200 years ago, everything was hand forged pretty much so everything bore evidence of that. To have something bearing no evidence of forging was something special and much desired. So if there are 3 candle holders in a general store for sale and two look hand forged and the 3rd looks flawless and unforged, 100 or 200 years ago I'm betting the more refined candle holder was higher priced. The blacksmith could ask more money for it. Today this situation has reversed. People more often want something that's bearing evidence of it being handmade because, well, everything they see in the stores is mass produced. So today if we have the same 3 candle holders, the ones bearing evidence of being forged may be more desired because hand forged items are extremely rare today. I can buy a hammer at HF for $10, but the same hammer hand forged by a blacksmith will cost me easily 10 times that or maybe a little less. If I'm paying that kind of money as a customer, I don't want it looking like a clone of the shiny one from HF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 Again.. I think the title is slightly miss leading.. So is what I am trying to find or expand upon.. After all this time I have been able to figure it out more simply.. Or the question to be more simply asked.. I am inspired by the work done for the last 1000 years.. What is it to you.. What dictates when a forging is finished and who inspired you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 What inspired me to be a perfectionist of the silly crazy level I am? OCD hardly describes it. I grew up in Father's metal spinning and machine shop. When I got old and strong enough to start spinning he was doing aerospace work to tolerances in mils. Some spun on air and to millionths of the inch. That's where my head is at, has been since I could talk, before actually. Dad used to watch me while Mother was at work, he had a spinning lathe in the basement, we always had a spinning shop at home. Anyway, he'd baby sit me by sitting me on the ways of the lathe behind the tail stock. He'd loosen the adjustment wheel just enough for a little free play and I knew I could turn it but ONLY in the free play. I'd sit behind the tail stock while he spun and play race car driver. The "white" (aluminum parts) cars were put puts, they hardly made noise. The gray (steel) cars were fast and squealed their tires going around corners. The red (copper) cars were motor boats you had to listen to closely to hear the motor. The gold cars (brass/bronze) were race cars that got faster louder and higher pitched the longer they raced. The exotic alloys didn't stick with me he didn't spin much in the home shop. Anyway, that's where my feel for metal came from, I learned it through my eyes, ears, hands and butt as a baby until OSHA made Dad keep me out of the shop. Can't have a 16 yr. old in a dangerous situation you know so that was it for me as a spinner. Not that I was terribly sorry, at the time the professional lifespan of a metal spinner was maybe 13 years. I went onto welding and fabrication. I started blacksmithing inspired by an episode of "Have Gun Will Travel" I think it was but largely as a relief from crazy tight precision of Dad's shop. Seriously, 0.001" was almost eyeball for him, 0.00001 was every day, the aerospace work was REALLY close. I framed our house to 1/64", length, width, height, and square, dead plumb and level. That much slop actually gave me dreams, almost nightmares. Historically the blacksmith's craft was the industrial standard, it's the ONLY way steel was formed aside from casting. People wanted, needed precision products, if a smith couldn't produce smooth precise forgings s/he wasn't a blacksmith he was a hack or maybe a handyman or . . . ? Forging the screws on a leg vise isn't a slop job, sure there is slack but it can't be uneven or sloppy or it's scrap. Right? You're looking at an age when the blacksmith's craft was all there was if you wanted an iron/steel . . . anything. It's a level of craftsmanship reserved to those who make their living at it, meet the standard or go hungry and cold. WWII changed things a lot, it required America to start mass producing weapons, machinery, ships, everything in unheard of quantities and they all had to be the same so parts could be interchanged. When the war was over the factories and production capacity was still there and too valuable to let decay. Enter the world of affordable mass produced everything. A skilled worker could afford to own a home, car, toys. For the first time in history the average worker could afford these things because GM could turn out a couple thousand finished autos a day, easy peasy. Tract homes were sort of adapted to house factory workers and were affordable because a crew of 10 guys could have one ready to be painted and moved into in a couple days. We used to take week long drives because we could and whenever we were on the road we had a game. We called out every house we saw that was just like ours, same for cars or pickup trucks. Dad had to have a pickup truck. Anyway, mass produced goods were the symbol of prosperity for my parents and something to revel in. For my generation though we've lived with mass produced pop outs of every description, everything everywhere, same general thing is just like your's, your parents, your neighbor's, on and on. The generations after mine re even more divorced from hand made or unique. Having something NOBODY else has is a desirable thing. This makes tool marks of any kind desirable as identifiers of it's uniqueness. This is what makes RR spikes so marketable, almost everybody knows what a RR spike is and looks like and to be able to see and feel it's transition into something else is special. Steel has been the universal symbol of strength and durability for humans since it was discovered/invented/? To be able to make it do our bidding with man's oldest tools, fire and something to bash with is a powerful symbol of our ability to control and use our world. Those marks are the fingerprints of mankind's strength and control over the strongest things. It's irresistible. On a couple occasions someone at a demo offered a bonus if I'd let them put a hammer mark in the product they were buying. The $19.95 coat hook I let the maybe 10 yr old strike the veiner for me got me a $20 tip and his parents were all but wetting themselves they were so happy. The boy was running around the audience at the request of folks to see what he'd done. The veins weren't of even depth, he stutter struck a couple so they were out of position but they were HIS signature in steel. I know it's just my feelings but I haven't seen much to counter it but that's why I believe modern hand forged products aren't expected to be of machine quality and would probably be rejects 100 years ago. It's a living craft and if it weren't for the desire of folks to own something at least a little unique, maybe something they made with their own hands, whatever, Blacksmithing would be a lost craft except as a narrow niche market, say restoration. Certainly not making coffee tables, couches, yard art, etc. etc. That's my take on it and how I got metal in my blood and guts. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 18, 2018 Share Posted September 18, 2018 I have the luxury of being an avocational builder, restorer, mechanic, fabricator, jack-of-all-trades, and 'budding' blacksmith, which means that in most cases I don't have to cater to the tastes of other individuals. In my own work I strive for aesthetics and functionality that are in line with my personal preferences, so Jennifer's question is probably easier for me to address than it is for a professional blacksmith who needs to be cognizant of his/her clients' needs, tastes, and interests. Actually, I find my own preferences quite similar to Jennifer's regarding the level of fit and finish of the things that I make. I take pride in my ability to produce a finished-looking item, whatever the project happens to be. As to where I picked up that trait or inspiration, besides the fact that I had my own tool kit with real tools before I was old enough to read, and besides the fact that I somehow managed to disassemble a hotel toilet at age three when my parents weren't looking (which was embarrassing for them to explain to the disbelieving hotel manager), I think part of it is heredity. My parents had perfectionist tendencies that I think must have been passed on to me. Another factor is that I was always encouraged to build things. My folks always wanted me to be a scientist, so I guess that they saw building things as a lead-in to a career in science or engineering (sorry dad and mom for straying a bit from that career path). My stepfather was a cartographer, which required extreme perfection and almost infinite attention to detail, so getting praise from him about something that I built was a true and satisfying compliment. I was also sort of a semi-loner in my teenage years and quite into cars, having had my first car at age 12 and having owned and rebuilt four or five vehicles by the time I was old enough to drive and selling most of them at a profit. We were not a wealthy family and my car hobby had to be pretty much self-supporting, so I learned to "make do" and fix or modify things rather than just replace them. I had an oxy-acetylene outfit at age 13 or 14 and sold numerous pieces of metal sculpture by the time I was in college, where I thought I wanted to be an art major, then changed my mind, but I won't go into that right now, other than to say that I changed my mind several times in six years at the U My early interest in automotive mechanics evolved in other directions. I'm interested in early steam technology, Industrial Revolution technology, ships, etc. My interest in history and architecture may have evolved at least partially from my interest in the Industrial Revolution. In any case, I eventually went back to school later in life and completed my doctorate in anthropology (in the archaeology program). I suppose that my interests in history and archaeology were among the keys to my interests in restoring antique houses. I've restored four houses to date and am working on a fifth as we speak. Note that my work on antique houses is much more "restoration" than "renovation," and I think that the former requires a higher degree of attention to detail, as the parameters are more demanding. I can't just do any old thing when accurately restoring a house; I need to use the proper materials while duplicating historically-correct stylistic elements at the same time. While house restoration may limit my aesthetic creativity to some degree (in a way, it's sort of like having a "client," even though it's my own house), fortunately, old houses fall within the range of my personal stylistic tastes (by choice), and at the same time restoration work presents challenges that can be solved in my own creative ways, so it's kind of a creativity trade-off. For example, to create original-type scarf joints in clapboard siding, I invented a machine to make the scarf joints that saved me many hours of tedious labor and produced joints that looked just like they were done by an expert 18th-century carpenter. All in all, I think that there is a kind of complex and collective synergy in the totality of one's life experience that creates vectors that are, if not irresistible, at least rather compelling to follow. Blacksmithing, to me, is one of those vectors that has formed and seems quite natural to explore. Now, if you'll afford me a brief digression, I wanted to add an example illustrating something that I said in my earlier post about how contextual factors can broaden my appreciation of exceptions to my usual preferences. For instance, from my long-time interest in marine transport history, I know that the work done by shipboard blacksmiths on, let's say, an 18th-century British ship of the line, was often carried out under less-than-favorable and often horrendous conditions. Things tend to break a lot during storms and battles and need to be repaired quickly and adequately. There were not spares for every metal item on the ship, and a blacksmith had to turn out items that were strong and functional as quickly as possible, in which case I can appreciate the story and circumstances behind some of their less finished-looking items when working under duress. Another exception might be the farmer-blacksmith, who, often by necessity, had to create workable metal tools and hardware without having the formal skills and lifelong training of a professional smith, in which case I tend to be more accepting of the less-than-finished-looking work that they produced. It all goes back to the idea of a "story" behind the piece when it comes to how I interpret an object. I hope that wasn't too boring. Al (Steamboat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 Thanks Lucky and Al (Steamboat) for responding and sharing you stories.. I used to be a perfectionist on every thing... My Dad was a bit of a mickey mouser and he would always be yelling at me" We are not building a church".. My response was from even very early on was " If i'm gonna spend my time doing the work then I'm going to make it the best I can".. Needless to say we got to a point in our relationship that it was difficult to work together.. Al, I love steam powered items.. Do you guys have any modern inspirations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick S Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 To me, most levels of finish are acceptable to my aesthetic, when they do not exceed the level of craftsmanship and the object has a pleasing, functional shape. For example if a knife has nice lines, but some visible imperfections, I'd wouldn't like it with a mirror finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 RickS: is there someone whom you have seen that inspired your take on what the level of finish should be? Or have you seen someones work that has shown you what you deem to be appealing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Snuffy Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 I'm at the opposite end of the experience spectrum from most of you, having only been smithing once a week for about a year-and-a-half. For me, my "finished" pieces are only now started to be not disappointing. I endeavor to forge a piece (and we're talking simple hooks, nails, bottle openers, etc.) to the best of my abilities and get it as smooth and regular as I can. I have had friends tell me that they appreciate the irregularities, hammer marks from miss-hits, and other "character marks" as proof of its hand-made origins. One person told me that if she wanted hooks that looked identical, she'd buy them from a store and that's why she really liked my work. Talk about damning with faint praise! I appreciate the aesthetics of pieces with intentional tool-marks, but for me I desire to forge a piece that's smooth, scale-free, regular in its angles and curves and essentially indistinguishable from one that's mass-produced. Well... It might be more accurate to say that I'd like to get my skill set to that level. Once there, I might decide to leave some hammer marks! Or not. Torbjörn Åhman's work, from his YouTube channel, really inspires me as someone that wants to make tools. The clean lines and smooth finish of his tools and projects is what I aspire to emulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick S Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 jlpservises: I've long admired Peter Ross' work since first exposed to him in the Woodwright's shop TV programs. I think that's where I first began to appreciate an appropriate level of finish to the level of refinement of the object. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranchmanben Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/18/2018 at 9:56 PM, Rick S said: I've long admired Peter Ross' work since first exposed to him in the Woodwright's shop TV programs. I’m with you. Pete Ross is truly a forged and filed blacksmith. His video is where I learned to make the box joint dividers. He’s a man who eyeballs measurements, forges something out and with a “few” licks of the file has a gorgeous product. The thing about his forgings is that for the most part, they could do with out the filing, if so desired. I’d say that’s the level of finish that I strive towards, they are perfectly fine in an as forged state but with minimal work with only a file they are transformed into an more refined condition or somewhere in between. Best way I can think to say it is that even though the actual forging is the same, in the as forged condition is great for the back door and the filed finish is for the front door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLO Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 I personally dislike a perfect mirror finish, this is down to the fact that a mirror finish will rust after a day, a week. but a forging that is left rough but still well done will always be my preferred style. I don't care for the mirror finish because it provides no real protection to the bare metal. I will always prefer an axe with a patina over the mirror finish. the patina will protect the blade or metal. I don't mind a small hammer mark here or there as long as it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the tool or piece. A door handle will always do the same job hammer mark or not. the same goes for everything. but there are exceptions like if the tool was for use in the food industry you would clean it up so that bacteria could not build up, or if the prospective buyer specifically asked for a mirror finish, these are the times where I will accept the mirror finish. A finished forging is one that does its job, that is if its a door handle all it needs is a coat of some anti-rust agent, if its a knife for a buyer then its up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hikerjohnson Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 What dictates when a forging is finished and who inspired you? TL,DR: "Finished” varies based on the service of the item, and its exposure/surroundings. Minimal tooling smiths like Petrila, Ross, Aspery, Brazeal, Ahman, Taylor are inspiring. I have more or less always considered myself a bit of a hack. I think this stems in large part from having been raised by perfectionists, one an amateur cabinetmaker, and the other a retired machinist. It’s daunting to look at some of the things you see made by experienced people at the peak of their skill, and it’s easy to think that you’ll never be able to get to that level of quality. The tooling and fixturing required (or at least collected) can make your head spin too (I can’t do that job without this special $$$ widget…) Having been educated as an engineer can be also be ruinous, because you spend years learning how things fail, and spend a lot of time learning how to strip away what isn’t required in a design for strength and utility, and then adding back things to meet various codes and criteria that aren’t necessarily driven solely by function. Also, little or no attention is given to form. Function is mandatory, followed by cost and manufacturability, and form is a distant third concern. This is not to say that a spare, utilitarian design cannot be beautiful, it can. It just doesn’t often happen. So, anyway, I did become a marginally competent metal and woodworker, though I am no toolroom machinist, nor cabinetmaker. I never will be either, as that’s not my trade. Blacksmithing, though, is not something that I grew up with. I did see a lot of wrought iron growing up outside of NYC, and in various museums. What excites me about wrought work is that depending on the job, the finish level varies greatly, and so does the skill level required. There is a banded chest in the Chicago art museum from the 1500’s that looks just terrible. But, for the job it needed to do, someone thought it was finished. Seeing something like this venerated in an art museum is encouraging to a lot of newer smiths. You think, “I could make that.” And you’re probably right. It doesn’t take too much practice to make a decently fair curve, and penny scrolls and leaves aren’t too onerous either. Now skip ahead a few centuries to the 17th. Same Chicago Museum. This work is inconceivable. Forged, filed, sawn, engraved, pierced, sanded, polished. Oh, and a ton of springs and small items heat treated, then polished. This isn’t a door lock, it’s a functional sculpture made by someone(s) who did nothing else. I’ll never get here. Not only could I not get to this level, I don’t care to. I can’t devote enough hours over a long enough period of time to learn how to do this level of work competently. Additionally, there are probably only a handful of people on the Earth who would pay someone a living wage to make something like this. What I’m saying is, this is not something that should be held up as the ideal standard for a forged product in the 21st century. Here’s a staircase and a pair of grilles (same museum; can you tell I’ve been to Chicago recently?) Late 19th-early 20th centuries. Though under some paint, you can tell that they’re all hand made, and well. You can see no two pairs of the components are exactly alike, but this is up close. From the intended viewing distance of several feet, you cannot tell. The parts form a pleasing whole, and any flaws disappear. The white grille spent its life outside, and you can see some signs of that. The black grille and the staircase, though, they’re inside, and always have been, so they look as they did when they left the shop. You can see the welds on the stair rail scrolls, and you can also see the differences from element to element, probably as they were tweaked to fill the available cell at final fit-up and assembly. I think that’s OK, though. The slight irregularities, as viewed by the user, form a more organic form, giving some life to the metal. Look at a grille that was laser cut sometime with what should be an organic pattern to it. Unless done quite well, you’ll feel something isn’t quite right. It’s static, no sense of movement… These are items that I, a first-year learning smith, do not have the ability to make right now. But, I think I could make them with a bit of practice and a little bit more learning. This level of fit and finish is accessible by the mere mortal backyard tinkerer, without massive tooling and expense, nor a lifetime of practice. Some patience and planning, to be sure. I think this level of work is pretty close to optimal in terms of finish and consistency. It is "good enough". Recall that in Islamic art, for example, it considered an affront to make a perfect pattern. Signs of the human hand and imperfections are included deliberately by the artist. I guess one of the points I’m trying to make, is that “finished” is subjective and qualitative. All the things pictured here were bought and paid for, by presumably happy customers, and have been appreciated for centuries. Different things, different jobs, different standards. All finished, though. For me personally, as a blacksmith, the items that I find most inspirational are the ones that are “accessible” in the sense that I can understand how they were made, and that “I” could make them, with a reasonable amount of time and patience. Your work, Peter Ross’, Mark Apery’s, Brian Brazeal's, Torbjorn Ahman's, and Rowan Taylor's are very inspirational. You’re all working at a very high level of skill, but there is no really good reason preventing me from working at the same level of quality if I choose to put in the time. Also heartening to the beginning smith is the fact that most of the listed smiths do amazing work with a minimal number of tools; very important to the person just getting going. In the meantime, at my own skill level, I can make useful things, though they will have scale marks and errant hammer dings. For most common forged items, it’s not like a machined part where it’s within tolerance or it is scrap. There's a lot more leeway if you're willing to accept less than perfection in your own work. I'll also accidentally produce something nice looking from time to time as I learn and improve... Regarding your door handles, the large one would be splendid on the front door of a colonial Cape, and the small one would be very appropriate on an outbuilding, or a less visible door or cabinet. You know, pride of place, commensurate with skill required and effort invested. That Suffolk latch just wouldn't make any sense on a chicken coop or a toolshed, even if you were unusually wealthy. As for the hammers, there isn’t any reason in the world Big Blu (and other manufacturers…) couldn’t have used a flatter on the finishing pass and cleaned up the vast majority of the tooling marks. I don’t find it appealing; it looks unfinished to me. Other people will go out of their way to seek out such a finish. No accounting for taste. That said though, I forged a hold-fast for the spare tire under a friend’s car. It’s not pretty, it’s not filed, it’s not painted. It’s covered in fire scale. But, nobody is likely to see it between now and when it gets chewed up to be made into a new car. I thought it was an appropriate level of finish for the job and exposure (and compensation: none). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFC Snuffy Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Well said, sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted September 22, 2018 Author Share Posted September 22, 2018 Yes, well Said Hikerjohnson. Well said indeed.. It is funny to me the different methods or because of the human factor each piece forged by 90% of the people has no true measurement and the forged item is simply the length it was suppose to be on 1 off's.. Production work or wrought iron work this is different but even with that.. The precision is still in fractional inches vs 0.0001. I've seen and done high accuracy open die forgings but we are talking about still being machined after the fact or being used as is.. Again well said.. And thanks Eric.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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