Am I week or Did I misjudge the Steel?

[Eric Green]

So my little brother brought me 2.5 ft of 7/8" x 5/8" stock. 

I was over joyed because it would be perfect to make some tongs from. 

Well I heated it up in my little forge. A nice bright Orange. I take my 2.5lb Cross peen and try to make the first upset. barely does anything. I give it several more whacks and it moves a bit. I gave up on it, my arm was trying to lock up after that work. 

Upon reflection I have come up with 2 things. Either I'm just still a bit weak from lack of upper body strength or the 2.5lb hammer wasn't enough weight. Unfortunately, I don't have a 4lb hand sledge, next size i have is a 6lb sledge with a slightly shortened handle.

EDIT: Before I worked the Steel, I did a spark test. it had an Identical spark to some Known mild Steel I had on hand.

[Daswulf]

well don't jump up to a bigger hammer if you are worried that you don't have the arm strength. 2.5-3# hammer should be able to move that. Have you worked smaller stock to get a feel for it first? 

If it is mild steel bright orange should move well. 

Just build up to it. It's all about practice. Just don't over do it. 

[Lou L]

Check anvil height.  If it is up too high you are definitely losing power.  Hammer technique is important too.  Littleblacksmith isn’t a big dude but he sure can move a lot of metal with long, smooth strokes of his hammer. 

You could try hardening it to see if it is high carbon,  just in case your spark test missed something.

In reality, Das is probably right...practice, practice, practice!

 

Lou

[Daswulf]

Thicker metal often doesn't move as fast as we might want or expect. Just keep at it as long as you feel well enough to and keep it at a good heat. Don't be afraid to get it back in the fire. This gives your arm/ hand a break too. 

Oh, almost forgot to mention also to give it a good soak in the fire at temp. It may be hot enough on the outside but not quite there on the inside. This can cause difficulty moving the piece. A soak at heat before you start hammering helps. Once it's been at temp, when you return it to the fire it takes less time to get back to forging temp. 

[Eric Green]

I most'y have been working 3/8" round stock. 

I think I'll try to do a soak. Soon as I get some Welding Sticks I have an upgrade for my Forge. It's a Side blast but i found some 1/4" plate that's enough to make an 8"x8" bottom blast fire pot with.

anyways, TY for the responses, I'll try again at a later date Got a couple things I'm doing first and I have limited fuel atm. 

[Frozenforge]

Going from 3/8 round to 7/8x5/8 will take quite a bit more effort! You could get it up to yellow heat to make it easier.

[ThomasPowers]

When you increase size you have to consider the cross sectional increase: example; 1/2" stock is not double 1/4" stock; the cross sectional area is *4*  times that of 1/4" and so you have to expend 4 times the effort rather than just double the effort. OTOH large stock stays hot longer (and is a bigger target to hit...)

[anvil]

Two things. 

When it's yellow it's mellow,,, get it hot.

Second and as counter productive as this may seem, use a lighter hammer.

 

[Frosty]

Holy mackerel that's TOO HEAVY for tong stock! Keep it but use it for making other tools down the road, 5/8" square is plenty heavy for tongs and 3/8" x 3/4" is much easier for tong stock though you have a lot of drawing out for the reigns.

Use a hammer in the range of 2 lbs. till you've developed hammer control and proper technique, going heavier now is more likely to injure you than improve your work. Honest, I know a couple guys with permanent joint damage from poor technique.

Frosty The Lucky.

[C-1ToolSteel]

What on earth did you feel you needed to upset it for?? As Frosty said, too big to begin with! I don't think you should feel like a wimp, you just need some practice. To be honest, It would probably take me a good number of heats to upset it very much at all with a hammer that size...

[Eric Green]

I realize I used the wrong terminology. I was doing the first set down for a Tong blank. Sorry for the confusion.

I know the 5/8x7/8 is a bit big but I seen where 5/8 square bar is used for tongs quite a bit. atm I have a piece of 3/8 x 1" 18" long that I'll be making some bolt tongs from. I watched a tutorial for it on Youtube of a WCB competitor doing a practice run. I'm worried a little since I don't have a couple of the tools he used or the striker for that matter but I think I should be good. I'm broke and out of welding rods otherwise I would make a quick tool I could use on a vise or something that would replace what he used.

[Ranchmanben]

3/8”x 1” and 5/8” square are great sizes for tong. I know that video you’re talking about and I know the guy who was doing the building. He made that look so incredibly easy it’s ridiculous. You’ve got to keep in mind that he’s currently one of the very best farriers in the world and personally I think farriers swing a hammer better than anyone else. I’m not saying that to dissuade you from giving it a try, just telling you to have realistic expectations from your first try at a farrier style tongs. They’re not as easy as a more traditional style bolt tong. 

If I had my tong learning experience to do over, I’d make a couple of smaller lighter practice runs with 1/4”x3/4” material before trying some full sized tongs. All the principals are the same but it’s easier material to move and, ideally, you’ll end up with a usable tool for smaller stock. It would also be in you’re best interest to try tradition tongs before diving into the farrier style.  jlpservicesinc has some great YouTube videos on making tongs that can be found in the tongs section of the hand tool category of this forum. 

 

[Eric Green]

I watch a lot of You Tube. I learn visually easier than reading from a book or forum pages. 

TBH, the method I saw making tongs from a single 3/8" x 1" x 18" looks easier than the traditional method of making Bolt Tongs.

I have practiced simple tong blanks with Rebar. and now that I have something closer to a real anvil all the techniques are falling into place. It's pretty difficult to practice the techniques used on an anvil when you have a vertical railroad rail.

for reference, this is the video I was talking about.

I understand he has a striker in this video. I also understand that he does things based on the idea of a competition so there is a few things i can skip, like using the flattening hammer, I don't have one yet. He also used a striker through the video and one of his hammers is a fatter cross peen. however he only used it for making the gap between the boss and the actual grabbing part of the tongs. splitting the tongs will probably consume a lot of time for me since i don't have a striker and the hand cut off. 

My weakest point atm is Drawing out. i have several feet of 3/8" rebar that will get cut into sections and I plan to make a mess of Rebar S hooks to practice Tapers. I do fin with double tapers like when I make a Leaf but I still don't quite have down "putting a point on something" My Punching is better. I really wish i had a Pro I knew around here i could do some classes with and bounce questions off of. 

anyways, time for sleep, got a lot to do tomorrow.

[John McPherson]

OK, so here is what I see in the video. 

(1) These guys swing a hammer for a living, often working together, so there is no wasted time or effort when the metal is at working temps. Plan your work while the iron is heating, when it comes out of the fire, it is GO time.

(2) The metal starts out HOT, almost white (burning) so there is a longer window that it can be worked. Vigorous hammering actually keeps the metal hot longer, as does lifting it slightly off the anvil between blows.

(3) They are using a sledge in the hands of a striker, and a long whippy handle on the rounding hammer. If you look at the wear patterns on the handle, he is using the full length of the handle most of the time, swinging from the rafters, choking up only for final finishing. Maximum Metal Movement: MMM good!

All of which makes it look easy to an outsider.

[Ranchmanben]

John, you summed up that video nicely. 

[Shalev Zohar]

One point that didn't come up here is your anvil; If you have a light/unfastened anvil/aso, its give might steal a major slice of your strike power. I've had this happen to me with my first 7kg aso, things weren't moving as fast as they should, especially in upsetting, because the whole thing was moved by my swings. My heavier new aso's have less of this problem. I don't know what you hammer on but if it's light at least give it a proper stiff stand. Might improve your speed a lot

[Eric Green]

7 hours ago, John McPherson said:

OK, so here is what I see in the video. 

(1) These guys swing a hammer for a living, often working together, so there is no wasted time or effort when the metal is at working temps. Plan your work while the iron is heating, when it comes out of the fire, it is GO time.

(2) The metal starts out HOT, almost white (burning) so there is a longer window that it can be worked. Vigorous hammering actually keeps the metal hot longer, as does lifting it slightly off the anvil between blows.

(3) They are using a sledge in the hands of a striker, and a long whippy handle on the rounding hammer. If you look at the wear patterns on the handle, he is using the full length of the handle most of the time, swinging from the rafters, choking up only for final finishing. Maximum Metal Movement: MMM good!

All of which makes it look easy to an outsider.

Thank you very much Jon, that's some great information. I don't want to sound arrogant but it is something I considered. I know i'm very much a novice and I know that I'm no where near their proficiency. It just means mine would take longer and not be as pretty. I do like the farrier set down to be honest. But I also know when I'm in over my Head. I found a different Video by Christ Centered Ironworks(love this guy his videos have taught me a lot.) he uses 1/4 x 1" to make some bolt Tongs. he started with 10" and drew out reins then moved to the head itself. I feel this would be a better method for me because Drawing out is something I need more practice with.

Shalev Zohar, my Anvil is several 5/8" plates welded together and then sandwiched between 2 2" thick mild Steel bricks. it easily weighs 50lbs and it hasn't gotten a Horn yet. I'm thinking of putting together a real stand today and mounting it on it. right now it's loose and on top of some Cinder blocks that I laid some boards on for more stability and to keep the cinder blocks from crumbling. It doesn't move to much. But I do feel it stole a bunch of my thunder when I tried to forge the bar stock from the OP. 

Whelp time to get rolling. I need more fuel for my forge and I'm thinking I want to make a better anvil stand.

[Ranchmanben]

The farrier style is my preference to build as well. They take a little longer but they function well and look nice. 

[Steve Sells]

I can guarantee you are not week, because being a week is being 7 days.  Weak perhaps