ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 NOTE clean quartz sand was used as a flux in the days of real wrought iron. If you are welding modern alloys especially nickel or chromium containing alloys (like saw blades!) it is NOT a good flux! 20 Mule Team Borax + Roach Prufe (boric acid) make a good cheap flux. No flux works with extremely good welding material and environments. I must ask: Do you stuff hay in your vehicle's gas tank? Sand as a flux is equivalent to that....Good at earlier times, not very good now. (Save for folks still using real wrought iron which is pretty much self fluxing as it comes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 If by stuff hay in my vehicles gas tank you mean feed my riding horses hay well yes I do... As well I know most African Smith's still used sand as late as the 90's... But I'll not use it anymore I suppose that in itself could be a lot of the reason for failure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 What type of steel are you trying to weld that's failing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Originally I was playing with some old leaf springs from a 78 Chevy truck to my surprise I learned it's real hard to weld high carbon steels to each other. Now I have quite the stock pile of steel (my father is fabricator brings it me from work) so I've tried to forge weld a pieces of angle iron into them selves a few times only to find myself angered at the failed attempts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Lots of folk have had trouble welding leaf spring to itself, although the precise reasons are hotly debated. 5160 spring steel is at the low end of high-carbon anyway (or the high end of medium carbon, depending on who you ask), and the problem seems to be less the carbon content than the other alloying elements. Plain (low-alloy) high carbon is actually easier to weld, or at least so I'm told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 where did you get the idea of high carbon steels being hard to weld? its total nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 The issue isn't really high carbon steels per se. Specific steels are hard to weld to themselves. Some of these are steels with a fair amount (several percent or more) of chromium in them, such as 5160 used frequently in leaf springs. Simple high carbon steels (mostly just iron and carbon, with only trace amounts of other elements) tend to weld to themselves well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Well I was told this by a successful experienced smith as well the same man told that my forge very well could be polluted apparently it's possible I'm not sure. I've grinded and wire brushed it clean over and over again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Sorry, but; High carbon steels are easy to forge weld. Chromium steels are harder to forge weld especially to themselves. So automotive leaf springs would fall into that group especially if you try to weld them to themselves. Welding "high alloy steels" may call for a very aggressive toxic flux; but you are way before that stage of the game. The best way to learn to forge weld---and I SELDOM use the term best!----is to have someone that is good at it teach you in person! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Oh if you only knew I am one of two Smith's (and I use this term lightly) I'm my area so to learn from one in person is not so much an option the other smith is only just started I've found something 1085 flat stock I believe it will take to the welding proses I hope but before I even try that I'll try for welding bar stock idea justanotherviking suggested...... I must admit I have had more answers then I expected I appreciate this very much so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, Buzzkill said: The issue isn't really high carbon steels per se. Specific steels are hard to weld to themselves. Some of these are steels with a fair amount (several percent or more) of chromium in them, such as 5160 used frequently in leaf springs. Simple high carbon steels (mostly just iron and carbon, with only trace amounts of other elements) tend to weld to themselves well. 5160 only has 0.8% Chrome hardly high Chrome content but I do agree its hard to weld to itself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I traveled some distance to learn myself, over 4 hours each way for both a beginner's class and a "master's" update---Billy Merritt at an IBA conference ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I'd happily go to them but as a father of six and full time self-employed man I've used my "free" time as little as it is in the fire but as even that goes my two oldest 11&10 insists on being there with me lol as things tend to go at that age how ever I've been looking into classes and found a few several hours away as well as months away also paid up some moola to an Alex steel site in all that was is a wast of money I found the same vids on YouTube for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 In that case, you might find it more satisfying and less frustrating to concentrate for now on projects that don't require forge welding. If nothing else, you'll be developing good hammer control, which will come in useful when you do get around to welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I understand hammer control (for the most part) as a carpenter and two years of smithing as you may see in this ball pein hammer conversion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Good Morning Chris, Stop making guess's. Start with the round like I suggested earlier. To play Baseball, first you must get to First base. This is no different. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Thanks Neil as we speak I am lighting a fire got a few pieces of small round cut at about 8" with luck I'll have forge welded successfully today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Small round stock will just stick to itself at the right temp, no hammering required. If you have a few pieces in the fire, let them get nice and hot, wait for a few sparks to fly, then lightly touch them together. They should stick and it cools over the next minute, try and pull them apart... Should be one piece and just bending around the welded part. Once that works, you now know what look for. Next time try sticking them together and hammering a bit to weld more of the bar together.. Hopefully that works out and you're on your way to successful welds after that. Start simple and work your way up, just experimenting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 here is a recent thread that was about 10 topics below, covers some stuff that hasn't been mentioned yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) Success!!! I did it scarfed the ends and tapped them together into one piece after words I got a little squirrelly and split a piece of the same round stock down the middle and inserted an old Nicholas file (grinded smooth) and managed to get it to stick without any major issues thank you all for your advice I don't know if it has been covered but my dad stopped by the house today watching me work with the 20 mule team and suggested maybe nocking the flux off off some of the "farmers" welding rods would it work........ Would not be a good alternative just seen it on this forum Edited January 5, 2018 by Chris brokkr Looked up my question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Borax 20 Mule Team, available at any grocery store. laundry soap aisle. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yes I use powder boric acid.. how ever I've read about old time Smith's in Europe who use wood ash? If it's a possibility to use I've got tons of it we heat our house with wood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Concentrate on forge welding. Practice until you get it down. Flux is not glue, you can forge weld without it. Just make sure the metals are super clean to start with, are at the right temperature all the way through the metal, and you do not waste time between the fire and the anvil. If you have problems, try ONE type flux until you no longer have problems with the forge welding. If there are still issues, try your best, and then ask Mr. Lincoln, Mr Hobart, or Mr. Miller for their blessing. Once blessed, take it back to the fire, smooth it out, and add hammer marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Joey van der Steeg did a few videos on forge welding with and without flux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will W. Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I agree with what Glenn said, 100%. Find out what works for you. Get it down pat. Once you can consistently weld different steels time and time again, then start experimenting with what other people use/say. You cannot accurately rule out the possibility that a bad weld is a technical error and not your experiments fault if you cannot conistently forge weld in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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