Will W. Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 10 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: As such they tended to weld at quite high temperatures---where the scale would liquefy on it's own Wait, Fe3O4 melts at 2907° F (1597° C) and iron melts at 2800 ° F (1538° C) how can the scale liquefy before the iron does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 If you're making your own anhydrous borax, save your arm crushing it, use a tumbler and ball bearings. Keep your eyes open at yard, garage, etc. sales for hobby rock tumblers, they're rubber lined hex shells with water tight doors. If you make your own use ONE lift lug or the stuff will just roll in the drum and turn it slowly 120 RPM. is pretty fast but okay. If you want to get rid of FEO whatever add a little powdered charcoal to your flux it'll scavenge oxy like there's no tomorrow. Oh yeah, when driving off the hygroscopic moisture, bake it in a silicone cake pan and it'll just pop out in a slab. Beats the snot out of chipping it out of a metal pan. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exo313 Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 So, cook borax, add charcoal and metal filings, forgeweld objet d'art, find wealthy patron... and you have the ancient alchemical recipe for turning iron to gold??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Really a person doesn't have to do any other than scarf correctly, apply flux (20 Mule Team is fine), take welding heat, and weld.. It's actually a very simple process with no black magic.. It really does come down to a few simple mistakes everybody makes.. Stick with a 1018 hot rolled or wrought iron for your first welds.. 1018 cold rolled as well as A36 can be a little bit more finicky. . There is a thread here somewhere that talks about proper placement in the fire (if using solid fuels)... I used commercially sold Hydrous borax for years and years before I switched... But when I am out teaching I use what every they have on hand.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Hammer Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Thank you everyone, I learned a lot from this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will W. Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 6 hours ago, Frosty said: they're rubber lined hex shells with water tight doors. Ive been thinking of making a tumbler for a while, and i never thought to not make it round. That makes a lot sense. Any benefit of going hexagonal vs. octagonal? Perhaps pentagonal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 may I throw in one word "pure" Fe3O4 melts at 2907 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will W. Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 True, i guess i overlooked that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Thank you everyone for the clarification on iron oxide. And thanks JLP for the offer to send me some scale - I have some around the anvil, so I'm good there. Odd thought - we're trying to keep scale out of our forge welds, but we're adding scale to the flux to do so. Hmmm, confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 yes there has been some discussion on that before; one theory is that finely divided iron oxide will reduce back to iron in the reducing atmosphere and make the weld zone a bit more "sticky". (much like some fluxes use powdered iron directly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Will W. said: Ive been thinking of making a tumbler for a while, and i never thought to not make it round. That makes a lot sense. Any benefit of going hexagonal vs. octagonal? Perhaps pentagonal? Not that I know of but it seems that hex is what the commercial tumbler makers have been making for I don't know how many decades. A round drum with a lifting lug can be problematical. All you want the lug to do is stir the media and parts, not lift and drop them that tends to pulverize the mix. However if the purpose of the tumbler is to crush and mix material a lift and drop tumbler might be THE thing. Dad used to tumble stone in a big way when he was active in the Boeing rock club, he had a stack of 55gl drum tumbler drums in the basement I remember learning to count to ten by counting the pyramid. The whole shebang was driven with one motor and was surprisingly quiet. He had a very precise method and progression I only remember him talking about not the details of, every drum was a different stage in polishing or working specific stones. Agate, jasper, rodonite, etc. all had their own needs to turn out right some would eat the other. Even what I recall from when I was 5 is too involved and inaccurate to go into. One of the things I DO recall from looking into all his tumbler drums is the lifting lugs. Some drums had one lug, some as many as 4-5. The lugs were various sizes of angle iron welded on both flanges so they made an inverted V. He just wanted them to stir the material, not lift and drop it. However the material needs to be lifted and dropped to pulverize it and pulverizing different ingredients together is a positive method of mixing. A person can mix wet and not worry about dust but don't use water for an anhydrous material! Acetone, MEK, etc. works fine and won't dissolve borax or charcoal so it won't dry into cake. If you were doing this commercially you could do a vacuum draw and recover the solvent. Personally I just live with the dust, there isn't a lot if you let it settle before opening the drum. Ah HAH! Thomas's post came in while I was finishing my long ramble. The reason so many commercial welding fluxes incorporate iron oxide is because they're intended for torch welding more than the forge. This puts the temperature above the melting temp of the subject. I still don't know why they deliberately put a contaminant in flux and I haven't asked them. All I can think of is it makes slag separation more efficient. Maybe nucleation sites to collect oxides and crud to float it to the top of the weld. I don't know that's just speculation. I don't get putting iron oxide in forge welding flux either, cleaning oxides out and preventing their formation leads to my most reliable welding methods. I buy Paterson #2 off the shelf at the local welding supply for about 1/4 the price of the "forge" welding fluxes sold by blacksmith suppliers. Paterson makes one that includes iron oxide too I just don't use it. The #2, blue works a treat, MSDS says it's borax and boric acid with a proprietary ingredient, probably the blue. It's obviously anhydrous as it doesn't foam up it just melts, spreads and sticks. The stuff works a treat. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 While the tumbler is a great idea I don' want the flux to fine.. I like it chunky so the heat doesn' carry it away... I've been to a few places that have 20 mule team or processed anhydrous and you use it and the next thing you know there is particles of flux hanging in the air.. Takes me 30 or 45minutes to process that whole tub the old way.. the new grinder should be even faster.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 Thanks Thomas! I figured there was probably a good explanation for it that I wasn't aware of. Learning something new every day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 I don't claim that that is a good explanation---just one I have heard that seemed to have some possible validity. As I do a bunch of billet welding I don't use fluxes that have iron in any form in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: I don't claim that that is a good explanation---just one I have heard that seemed to have some possible validity. As I do a bunch of billet welding I don't use fluxes that have iron in any form in them. Why not? You don't want to contaminate the weld pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 13, 2017 Share Posted December 13, 2017 yes it makes the interfaces a bit more "mushy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 yeah, its what I thought.. What are you using for base materials? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 14, 2017 Share Posted December 14, 2017 Yes (lots of different stuff; but bandsaw blades and pallet strapping is my most common billet.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hello everyone I am new to forums in general but I've been thwarted one too many times now I've been moving steel for almost 2 years now made many knifes and hatchet but for the life of me I've failed every attempt to successfully forge weld... Any advice would be awesome I use an old break drum set up with good hard wood charcoal I know I get great heat from it I can all but melt steel in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Happy New Year Chris, If you put your location in your avatar, you may find someone close to you. When you are trying to learn how to weld, at first, it is daunting and you are stressed. Relax, get a good hot fire, keep the fire clean with a mound over top of the fireball (it keeps the top side hot). Flux is not glue, you just want enough to carry away the surface impurities. Start with 3/8" round, 7" long and make "chain links". Lots of chain links, 1+1=3, 3+3=7, 7+7=15, etc. You will find after awhile, you don't always need flux. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Hmm sounds good to me, as well I suppose I should also be sure the domestic goddess is pleased for that in itself will cause an indirect failure.... I'll try to chain link some mild steel bar stock that I believe is a possibility.. I have been using clean sand as a flux but been told by a few people the requirements for flux is a myth possibly? But I have no clue where I am in MN I do not have much for help with forging to say the least I'm self YouTube taught Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherViking Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 If you're just trying to forge weld mild steel, you don't need flux... but it can be useful as a visual indicator. Otherwise, you want the steel to have started spitting a few sparks... there's a fine line between welding sparks, and a burnt mess. I'd suggest starting with two small diameter bits of round bar. Stick them in the fire touching each other, and wait for the sparks... pull it out, and gently but firmly hit them together... they should have now stuck. Now grab a third piece, and get it to stick to the previous two... rinse and repeat. Congrats, you now have a successful faggot weld and on your way to your first basket twist. Do this another few times using the small round stock to get used to the indicators... when it's too hot, too cold... etc... at the right temperature the scale will fall off and you'll not be messing with fluxing, wire brushing etc. Once you move up to thicker stock, there's a bit more involved in terms of getting the whole piece up to temperature, heat soak, etc... so start small and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris brokkr Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I'll give it a try thanks for the advice. Once I have the forge weld down I wish to make a Damascus billet out of some band saw, bimetal hacksaw blades and old circle saw blades any thoughts or suggestions for this process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Bimetal blades may or may not be good stock. If you have some, test harden some pieces to see if they are usable BEFORE you weld them up into a billet. This and many similar questions have been addressed previously. I would strongly recommend that you take some time to read over the existing threads on the forum. If nothing else, you'll be able to ask much better questions (and you won't annoy the curmudgeons, who occasionally get testy about having to repeat themselves). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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