c.baum Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Hello Community, I badly need some help! I'm at my wit's end. I already made so many things successfully. Tongs... Knifes... Axes in different sizes... And many other tools and things. But I'm currently not able to make a simple nail! I made several nail headers, drilled holes through 'em an drifted them to a square cross section tapered to the bottom side. I shouldered down the stock on two sides and draw out the tip of the nail. But every time i forge out the head, it's not centered. No matter what i try to move the metal in a direction.Also after "forming the head" i turn the nail header and the complete nail is crooked or just won't slip out the header with out brutal force. If there's one nail (out of ten) satisfying my image of a nail, it deforms while hammering into wood. I've got the feeling that i'm kind of deadlocked. So I want to start from the beginning. Are there any helpful hints about what i can do better? I would be very pleased if someone could help me find my way to a reproducible nail. P.S.: I tried to use the search function, but the search engine is not that helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Hi c.baum - You've made some beautiful things there. Forging a nail is something you could do with your eyes closed. You seem to be doing all the right things. My first nails were not centred too well, but I found that making sure the head was sufficiently hot (no big hits) and hammering vertically down initially before gently forging the angles, solved the problem. As for the nail not slipping out, I always found that the nail dropped out on cooling, often having to be fished out of the quench tub if I was careless. I have hammered the nails successfully into pine or soft wood, but they do buckle if I attack a piece of hard gum. I hope the more experienced smiths here can give you some guidelines ... we all need to be able to make a decent nail! Let us know how you get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Straight down to set the nail head and then walk the 4 directions---being Very careful not to have the body of the nail hitting the edge of the pritchel hole as that will cant the shaft! Proper straightening of the piece before the heading step helps too. Most of my students foul up when notching on the hardy---getting the nail out of true and in hitting the side of the pritchel when heading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 Let us start from the beginning. The header should be domed. The nail hole should be hour glass shaped. This holds the nail at the top side, but does not hold the nail on the bottom side of the hole. taper the stock to the length you need for the nail, and notch the stock as shown at a length of about 1-1/2 the diameter of the stock. Put the stock into the fire and warm it up to orange. Place the nail into the header and twist off the parent stock. Immediately take careful aim and hit the nail perpendicular to the nail shaft with a strong hit. This will drive the nail into the header and form a round head. Now hit the nail head N, S, E, and W making a flat on each side with the top of the nail as a 5th flat surface. (a 5 flat head). Quench the nail and header in the slack tank. This will keep the header cool, and shrink and release the nail from the header. It should fall out of the header or fall out with a gentle bump of the header. Look at the nail. The shaft of the nail should be straight before the nail head is made. If the head is off center to the shaft, then adjust your first hammer stroke to be perpendicular to the nail shaft, and not an angled blow of the hammer. The nail on the left is from 3/8" stock, the nail on the right if from 1/4" round stock. If you want the nail soft, then do not quench the nail. When the nail cools normally and releases, then cool the header in the slack tub, ready for the next nail to be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.baum Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 @ausfire cooling the nail in the header is a good hint. Thanks! @ThomasPowers Touching the edge of the pitchel hole. Could have find out that too @Glenn Thanks for the layout. It's the first time to see a nail header with a hour glass shaped hole. The problem is that i have taught my self everything about blacksmithing by watching videos, reading books and asking people. And most of the nail header tutorials tell to taper the hole from the bottom. I even saw a blacksmith making nails in an old hinge with a square hole cause he had no nail header at his fingertips. That's why i'm surprised but i will definitely try it. Thank you all so much for your help! I'll keep you up to date about my nail making progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Many blacksmithing problems can be solved with a little thought. And some modeling clay. (grin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Good Morning, C. Baum Sometimes when you are pushing yourself, you keep making the same initial moves. Sometimes when you are setting the rivet in Tongs, you use your large Hammer and the rivet bends. Use a smaller hammer and hit faster, the effort doesn't go as deep and you can alter your angle to correct an off Blow. Sometimes you just have to make a bucket full of Nails, don't count them, just keep making nails. All of a sudden, you are relaxed and are turning out good Nails. KaPing!!!!! Sometimes, you don't have a bucket, Don't kick the Bucket!!! Sometimes your bucket is a soup can, so what!!!! There is no magic, that patience can't fix!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.baum Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 @Glenn @swedefiddle Of course it's usually a matter of time, practice and patience. But you know, sometimes you're in a blind alley (is that the correct term?) and have to return to the beginning. See, it's sometimes really frustrating making really good tools and so on but not being able to make simple nails. And then you need a push into the right direction. And that's what this forum gave me thanks for that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 @jlpservicesinc has a very good video on how to make a nail header: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGU6xZL7sA&t=1926s And @TechnicusJoe has a good one about making nails: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 There are different approaches depending on the smith. One good nail maker I saw short-pointed the end first on the base of the horn to 5/8" or so, then brought it to the near anvil edge for shouldering and drawing the taper. The shoulder can be done over a radiused edge or a relatively sharper edge. A Bic whiteout pen can be used to mark a length line on the anvil face, so the nail end or point is put on the line every time. In that way if you are making multiples of the same length, you will get close to the same length. With the same whiteout, draw a concentric circle around the header hole and use it as a guide for your angle blows, if need be. If you get really handy, you can hardie cut maybe two or three turns only and when placing it in the header, you will already know how it is placed so the proper angle blow is used to center the head. Assuming the head is immediately centered, then you can use angle blows to make the head a three clout or four clout finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 What size nails are you making? Make them bigger until you gain more skill. Bigger is easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 On 10/23/2017 at 12:19 PM, Glenn said: The nail hole should be hour glass shaped. This holds the nail at the top side, but does not hold the nail on the bottom side of the hole. I'm sorry Glenn, but I don't agree with the double taper on the hole.. There should be a long taper from the work side all the way to the bottom but with no double taper.. Reason is if the nails is worked hot and you move the header sideways against the pritchel hole you can actually bend the shank of the nail into the bottom taper and will be tough to get out. on larger nails there is usually enough shank cross section to not cause as much of the problem but on smaller sizes used in hardware and such it really can make it a problem to get the nail out of the header, never mind having the nail remain intact in the process of removing it.. I speak this from experience as my early nail headers were of the double bevel variety.. After getting a few stuck during money jobs I changed into only one side taper.. Works worlds better.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Let us say the nail hole is a single V shaped and goes clear through the header. Just to be sure, is the nail hole V from the top being wide to the bottom being narrow, or inverted with the nail hole being narrow at the top and wide at the bottom ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 In the video I linked above, Jennifer punches all the way through from the bottom and then hot-rasps off the burr, leaving a single-tapered hole that’s apparently narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. Is that right, @jlpservicesinc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Glenn said: Let us say the nail hole is a single V shaped and goes clear through the header. Just to be sure, is the nail hole V from the top being wide to the bottom being narrow, or inverted with the nail hole being narrow at the top and wide at the bottom ? The nail hole tapers from the bottom.. Ideally it should only be slightly larger at the base vs at the opening at the top for the nail shank size.. If I had to say a taper I'd say 1/8" over 1" In other words the taper should be about 1/8" larger over the taper if it is 1" long.. I had experimented with different length to width ratios and found that the longer the taper over a given distance gave me the best nails and with the straightest shanks and were simple to remove as they shank had more support and even if I was heavy on the hammer with offset blows the nail was still easy to get out.. The other reason for this is the nail headers will wear in use and while most people look at nail making as a cool, show your friends kind of thing.. I used to make maybe 1000 to 2000 a year if the taper is to great the nail header will fail sooner.. I'll look for the nail header i used the most and you can see where the metal started to erode away and it has maybe 4000 nails put through it.. 1 hour ago, JHCC said: In the video I linked above, Jennifer punches all the way through from the bottom and then hot-rasps off the burr, leaving a single-tapered hole that’s apparently narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. Is that right, @jlpservicesinc? You got it exactly right.. I made 2 nail headers at the last NEB meet.. One for a demo, donated to the group and the other for someone who wanted one and really wanted a lesson.. You punch all the way through once you bottom out on the anvil.. This will create a bulge on the top and this is rasped off.. If done right it is amazing just how clean the shoulder is .. Go what the nail series of videos would be my suggestion.. All the info is there so you can produce both a sucsessful nail header and then watch the nail making video. It's got them all.. LOL.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Forging nail header punch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di5jBDMl-fM Making a nail header, start at 19:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THGU6xZL7sA&t=1983s Making Nails final video in the nail making series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRyRWkOmIMg&t=19s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4elements Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Is there a reason that a nail header doesn't have a short hollow hardy shank to keep from bending nails rather than being able to slide around over the pritchel hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c.baum Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thank you so much for the information and the friendly and objective discussion. Seems like making nails is not that easy But i think I've got an excerpt of what i can and will do better. Thanks again for the active participation everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exo313 Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 6 hours ago, 4elements said: Is there a reason that a nail header doesn't have a short hollow hardy shank to keep from bending nails rather than being able to slide around over the pritchel hole? I'm guessing most smiths these days aren't production nail makers. There are historical examples of dedicated tooling. I like this idea, things that stay put are a +1 in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 7 hours ago, 4elements said: Is there a reason that a nail header doesn't have a short hollow hardy shank to keep from bending nails rather than being able to slide around over the pritchel hole? Yes, it's not needed.. One certainly can as a blacksmith design and forge what every they want, but it would just mean more time making it with little benefit gained and usually a smith is trying to be time efficient.. If the nail header is designed properly the sliding around of the header is not a problem but you have to remember also that todays smiths are mainly hobbyist an produce a limited amount of nails.. For most hobbyist once they have made a few and the novelty wears off, the thing will sit in a box till they demonstrate or want to impress their friends. Last hardware order took 50 nails with a size 8 shank(1/8")X 1.5" shaft length onside pyramid head.. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I talked with a lady who once as an intern spent a summer making nails at one of the great historical houses on the east coast as they wanted to reconstruct a barn and so wanted *thousands* of hand forged nails like the original. She didn't need any of my "new student helpers" to do a great looking nail *fast*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 20 hours ago, JHCC said: In the video I linked above, Jennifer punches all the way through from the bottom and then hot-rasps off the burr, leaving a single-tapered hole that’s apparently narrow at the top and wide at the bottom. Is that right, @jlpservicesinc? actually either way will work but textbook is wider at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: I talked with a lady who once as an intern spent a summer making nails at one of the great historical houses Adam Smith notes in The Wealth of Nations (1776): "A common smith, who, though accustomed to handle the hammer, has never been used to make nails, if upon some particular occasion he is obliged to attempt it, will scarce, I am assured, be able to make above two or three hundred nails in a day, and those, too very bad ones. A smith who has been accustomed to make nails, but whose sole or principal business has not been that of a nailer, can seldom with the utmost diligence make more than eight hundred or a thousand nails in a day. I have seen several boys under twenty years of age who had never exercised any other trade but that of making nails, and who, when they exerted themselves could make, each of them, upwards of two thousand three hundred nails in a day. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 I can certainly believe that after watching this guy get at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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