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I Forge Iron

Frustrated


zion2634

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Can't seem to even forge a pair of simple tongs. Don't know what I'm doing wrong but nothing seems to work out for me. I guess every mistake is a learning experience. But XXXXX is it frustrating. It going to take more than this to get me to give up tho.

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You do realize that rebar is more difficult to learn to forge with than regular mild steel or A-36, right?

And so much more expensive to learn on; at least what I get paid an hour for my day job would *buy* new tongs in way less time than it takes to forge a pair; so using stuff that makes it harder and more do overs is *expensive*!

Also how is your forging skills in general?  Tongs are NOT a beginners project!  Like I tell my students "The fastest way to get good at forging blades is to LEARN TO FORGE FIRST, then learn to forge blades!"

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Take a look at the Abana.org website. Scroll down and there are a list of lessons starting with the basics. Forging tongs are quite a ways down the list by the way!

Watching forging videos of an experienced skilled smith are informative, once you understand the purpose and function of each hammer blow, but they do make it look much easier than it is!

My first experience of forging was in 1978 (I was 13) in school in Stowmarket England. We forged a center punch out of square stock, heat treated and tempered. 

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Yeah I've had a few people tell me to lose the rebar. It just free to me so I thought I could at least use it to make tongs. But that didn't work out very good. Actually it didn't work out at all. So I think I learned my lesson and I'm gonna lose the rebar and buy some steel that good to learn on. 

As far as I know I have no skills what so ever. But I was under the impression tongs were a beginner project. But from what you have said and the frustration I went through I was definitely wrong.

Thank you Frozenforge I will definitely check out that web site. I've been wondering for awhile where to start and what to start with so I'm sure that will answer all my question. 

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Start with some basic exercises. 

Fire control , and judging the correct temp color to forge at---dull red is not it.

Hammer control, and the effects of different blows on a piece. Watch how a cross peen hammer moves metal compared to the ball end of a ball peen hammer. 

Now use that rebar to learn accuracy with your hammer. Make the round square while paying attention to making the entire section square-not diamond, and the same size end to end. Then, make that piece round again with the same attention to dimensions and roundness. Do this several times until you get good at it.

Then try tapers. Taper a round piece, as well as a square one. 

Try drawing out a piece longer.

With all of these exercises try and do them with minimal hammer marks left in the piece when done.

Basic hammer skills may sound boring, but they are the foundation that you build on. 

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Yes, it has been said too many times that making your own tool is the way to learn blacksmithing. 

It is not. It may have been 100 years ago when the apprentice worked 12 hours under the blacksmith supervision, and made his tools after he had finished. 

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Not too bad for early beginner attempt especially using rebar. At the risk of sounding like I'm beating a dead horse rebar is pretty inconsistent and takes decent skills just to know what that couple inches of that bar needs to be useful. Different heat, hammer blows, etc. Use it to make basic beginner projects like S hooks, lawn and yard implements, sheppard hooks, weeding forks, tent, awning stakes, etc.

They are not only basic projects requiring just a couple techniques to help you polish a couple skills they're useful. You can hang a yard torch, lamp etc. from Sheppard hook hangers, or on S hooks hanging from a tree limb, keep the awning from blowing away and weed the lawn.

You can make all these products without needing tongs, right down to tapering both ends of a S hook to points. After sweating working on rebar you're going to LOVE mild or A-36 steel, it's a dream by comparison.

Good to hear you're not going to give up over a couple failed attempts we'd have to use you as an example.:P

Frosty The Lucky.

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Good luck with your forging. You really did pick a hard project to start off with - tongs are NOT easy to make, especially with reo. The first pair I made were pretty ordinary.  I had difficulty figuring out the right shape so I made them by separating an old pair and copying each piece, ensuring the two halves were identical. 

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There are MANY "Urban Myths" about blacksmithing.  Many of them are propagated on the internet, video games, Hollywood, and fantasy books.  If you are starting from the ground up it really helps to not rely on "common knowledge" but research from good sources *FIRST!*.

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20 minutes ago, SReynolds said:

I read  on Brian B's website; the first item the students make is a pair of tongs.

.........I really have no answer for that. 

Well, those aren't flat tongs or bolt tongs: they're hammer-maker's/pick-up tongs. Two long tapers, two short tapers, two punched and drifted holes, two little scrolls, a rivet, and some bending. There's also a big difference between a rank beginner trying to make tongs on their own and one doing it in a class with a master teacher who's just demonstrated the proper technique.

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I've, under very special circumstances, had a student make a pattern welded billet as their first project. They held the hammer and tongs and I did all the judgement calls and yelling.  (1 time in 36 years...and hopefully never again!)

I don't think someone starting out on their own would have the same results!

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7 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I don't think someone starting out on their own would have the same results!

Exactly. making something under the supervision of a master is better than all the books and manuals you can read.

I made a pattern-welded knife, the only one I ever made and I'm quite proud of it. I call it my knife, but it was done under the direction of a master, and without him it would doubtless  have finished up a crusty mess in the bottom of the quench bucket.

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Tongs are not a beginner's project.  If you try to force the issue, you can expect a lot of frustration.

Buy tongs new from people that make them for a living.  Not only do you get to support a fellow craftsman aching for a sale, but you get a quality product that holds your stock securely.  The latter makes for far better use of your limited forging time.

If you want to learn the trade, start with the basics.  Make a hundred scrolls of the same size.  Make a hundred tapers of the same size.  Repetition builds skill if you're doing things right and paying attention to the details.

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There's half a dozen different tong making videos out there that are just gold.  Foremost of them is Brian Brazeal's video.  Poking around in IFI  have it running in the background.  You'll be surprised  how many times you glance up and watch this or that again and something new just clicks.  Sounds like you have the number one trait to make a good smith and that's stubborness  :) you haven't given up yet.  Some of the first tongs I made I use A36 for the jaws and welded (arc) the rebar on for reigns.

 

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Hang tough, you can get this. Watch Mark Aspery do his version of box tongs. Both he and Brian use similar basics, isolate and rough in a mass, form the mass into the specific part, pay attention to the boss thickness and dimension.  The repative motion will give you muscle memory and your eye will get used to seeing the right form. I have a pile of scrap rebar in the shop. I don't use it for anything I care about....because it's a non specific (junk) steel. Get some decent mild steel  stock .75 round or 1 in square and start making tong bits. You will wind up with a pile of them, but you will know how to do it. I used this same technique to teach myself forge welding. I made 1/2 welded chain till I got it right. Everything in time my friend.  Good luck. 

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Zion,

When I first started blacksmithing, I thought the differences in steel composition could be overcome by hitting harder.  When that didn't work, I tried getting it hotter. I had some rebar that was harder than woodpecker teeth in one part, and just crumbly nonsense in another section of the same bar.

Then I thought I was clever for using "free" coil and leaf springs as my starting stock for just about everything.  The leaf springs were just really hard under the hammer.  Everything was so difficult that by the time I was getting to the finesse work, I was so tired that I'd end up burning the work in two.

I never tried mild steel because I mistakenly believed that my only sources were home centers where it's really expensive.

Thomas Powers posted long ago about how metal distributors sell the same materials for 1/4 of the cost of home centers. 

My first time working with 3/4" square mild steel stock was a water-shed moment for me.  It was like I was suddenly stronger, and the added mass of metal stayed hot for longer which let me get something accomplished in each heat.  It's a whole lot easier to thin out a mistake than it is to "bump up" or upset the stock. 

 

 

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