Bad news America

[arftist]

I am welding a few hundred 90 degree angles for a fab job.

My usual method is a cast iron knee and suitable clamps butI wanted better production so I ordered a Wilton angle vise. 

First instinct opening the package; poor finish for a Wilton.

I put the two bars in the vise but no matter how I fiddle I can't get repeatable 90 degree holding.

In frustration I flip the thing over, made in Taiwan.

I had purposely opted to spend   the extra hundred for Made In USA. 

Very unhappy with the Wilton company as well as the major retailer selling this crap.

Now instead  I am hoping that the Bessy coming today is still made in Germany. 

Last point; I am particularly upset that the Starret Company now  makes their tools in China.

The untold fortune that I spent on American made Starret tools as a machinist is now worthless. The Starret master level that I paid $1600 for sells for  one fith of that new now that it is made in China. That means my American made one isn't even worth $100 in the used market.

Loyal untill the end then dropped like hot slag.

[Kozzy]

Insert long-winded rant here even though it accomplishes nothing.

I have sold some complex machinery into China that was to be used to service their own markets.  Got a call in the middle of the night once--they couldn't figure out how they were supposed to get the oil to go into a zerk fitting.  They tried pouring and poking but the oil just wouldn't go in.

Ummmm...grease gun maybe?  "What's that?"  

Half a million dollar machine and didn't even understand the basics of maintenance.

China is getting better and can produce some amazingly good stuff these days but certain things just seem to go over their heads culturally--like consistent quality unless someone is there to ride production like a bucking bronco.

[Bud in PA]

I have often wondered Why we can't send a diplomat to China, who speaks fluent Chinese, and have him explain the meaning of quality control to them.

[notownkid]

It isn't all China in that boat.  For many years we made internal push button lock parts for a US company in NC.  They decided to move production of all parts in house so they wanted us to ship their dies to them.  Our tool maker took the die apart sharpened all the cutting parts and we shipped it to them.  2 weeks later they called accusing us of doing something to their dies.  ??  They hadn't been able to produce 1 part that was correct.  Production had stopped and their assembly line was stopped.  Did they need someone to go down and help them set up the die properly.  NO was the answer after another 2 weeks their lawyer called demanding we pay for a new die, NO was our answer.  If they wanted they could bring it up and we would put it in our machine and show them.  They drove it up to CT and within a half hour after we had sharpened the die as they had smashed it up, we were producing correct parts.  They had brought a piece of the material they were using and it was 40% thicker than it was spec. for and they didn't understand that that made a difference.  It's our understanding they outsourced it down there as they never did get it running in house even after we offered to send someone down to get it going for them at their expense.   Eventually we understand the entire job went to China. 

[Kozzy]

20 minutes ago, notownkid said:

It isn't all China in that boat. 

I understand this fairly well in US manufacturing.  Over the last 30 years I have seen huge changes in operations of my customer base caused by a revised corporate culture (mergers) which places emphasis on only the bottom line, ignoring all the steps that are involved to get a product to that point.  They'll throw away a dollar to save a penny at times.  In one case, Corporate refused to buy a $ 2 gasket that was stocked locally--and the salesman offered to deliver it to their door-- because it wasn't the cheapest and instead paid a buck plus $ 8 in shipping and waited 3 days.  Because of the way budgets work in the corporate world, they still considered it saving money on paper.

Obviously, quality also suffers when your corporate culture is all about saving the next penny and squeezing the system to make that continue perpetually.

My stuff tends to be custom made parts that take a solid week to produce.  Downtime costs my customers on the order of $ 20,000 per hour and spare parts average about $ 4000.  Back in the stone age it was a no-brainer for my customers to keep spare parts stocked.  Neo-corporate culture now says spares are a bad thing to have on the books.

So yes, it isn't just that China has hurt the US in manufacturing, we seem to be perfectly happy to shoot a hole in our own feet these days too.

And that doesn't even get into long term planning:  Long term investment in the USA seems to mean expecting near instant ROI now..while the Japanese and Germans look ahead 20-30 years.

Rant mode off.

[the iron dwarf]

much the same here too

[Glenn]

Today's bean counter will chase the very last bean to the end of the earth, thinking it will improve the bottom line. The business was convinced (usually by the bean counter) this was the only way to go.

What ever happened to answering the phone on the second or no more than the third ring, customer service where the *company service technician* actually knows your name and where you are located, and a company that can read a spec sheet, and knows whether the dimension is in decimal inches or decimal meters.

The world has changed and will NEVER go back to the way it was. There will be hold outs and we need to find and support those that are hanging on to quality and service.

 

 

[Charlotte]

The problem in the US is that the people running the show are dedicated to their own careers.  I worked for a corporation that gradually closed down all research and product development squeezed the sales staff out of face to face customer contact and eventually sold the whole production end to three different levels of competitors.

American Industry was founded by men that knew and understood their products and wanted it to get better.   I knew we were in trouble when the industry trade magazine reported that US Steel had changed its name to USX.  They subsequently sold all their steel divisions. 

That happened before half the members here were born.

[VaughnT]

It's interesting to see the ramifications finally manifesting.  People often talk about ripples in a pond, but I think this is a bad analogy because ripples fade to nothingness as they get farther from where the pebble splashed in.  More accurate would be the snowball tumbling downhill, growing in size as more and more snowflakes are picked up, eventually turning into an avalanche that destroys everything before it.

One little change, a new regulation, doesn't have any measurable impact in the first year or two. You don't see anything wrong, and you forget that the regulation was ever enacted.  And that one little change might never actually amount to anything.... if it existed in a vacuum.

Sadly, when you have a hundred little changes and they all impact various aspects of the culture, you get a snowball growing out of control.  Things that don't appear to be at all related to the subject at hand actually play a very big role and can have dire consequences.

[Prevenge]

Welcome to globalization, greed  and their effect on quality. Recently, while in the grocery store...I seen "Canadian salmon" (I am from BC..salmon is one of our things) processed in the US...packaged in China. "Fresh" . Think about that for a minute. Let's give a round of applause to the overpaid think-tank members that came up with that idea. Saved the company 5% and outsourced 45% of the $ out of country. Bravo. If it is being sold here...it shouldn't have to say "canadian salmon".....fml

[arftist]

The Bessey vise arrived.

Made in Germany.

Took about 5 minutes to figure out what the Wilton engineers missed.

A very slight differnce in angle of the movable jaw and it consistently clamps at true 90.

We used to be better than this folks.

The solution eludes me.

[notownkid]

4 hours ago, VaughnT said:

One little change, a new regulation, doesn't have any measurable impact in the first year or two

Vermont and a lot of Western New England are heavily Forested and Lumber was King for 150 yrs.   Logging is still a large industry BUT thanks to a bunch of little EPA rules that grew to large rules there are almost no Saw Mills operating.  Every week I  make a trip up the main Interstate headed north out of CT, to Mass. and through VT into Canada.  I pass log truck & trailers loaded with nice looking logs headed north all with Quebec plates and Mon. AM when I'm headed south I'm passing more trucks sometimes the same trucks headed south with wood products on them for the American market all with Quebec plates.  They all are running 2-3 large fuel tanks so they don't buy fuel and pay tax in the US but they we wear out the roads with their heavy loads.  North American Trade crap out of Washington has been a bust for America.   

When the EPA were issuing rule after rule on sawdust, scrap pieces, noise and lord knows what else Quebec was subsidizing their mills and they were coming into VT & NH and buying every piece of equip. scrapping the old stuff keeping anything new but making sure there were no new mills operating in the states. 

When on the farm we had a truck load of sawdust come every 2 weeks for bedding the cows and later when I went to horses we had a load a month.  Now you want bedding it comes in bags in one of the south bound trucks I see from Quebec.  Everyone who did make a living in lumber is gone or unemployed.  Ask an elected official about it and "Is there a problem? We haven't see or heard one"  Of course not they live in their protected little world of power and talk so much they can't hear anybody else but themselves. Want to reduce global warming, Shut up the politicians blowing all the hot air. 

Corp. America has been shifting jobs but with the blessing of American Politicians and that is our fault for voting for them( or in most cases not voting) and no term limits.  Want to fix things in America?  Talk to that person you see staring back at you from the mirror in the morning and get your butts out of the recliner on election day.

Just my 2 1/2 cents worth from 70 yrs. of watching what is going on around me.

 

[LawnJockey]

We have no one to blame but ourselves.  If we didn't buy it they would not sell it.  Think about it next time you pull into Walmart.

[notownkid]

WalMart you expect it but check out L L Bean.  The last time I was in one of their outlets the only thing I found made in US were their Maine boots, every other piece of clothing was Asia.  When I asked loudly was there anything American made? they called the Mall security, he agreed with me and said I wasn't the first person to get ushered out.    

[JNewman]

1 hour ago, arftist said:

The Bessey vise arrived.

Made in Germany.

Took about 5 minutes to figure out what the Wilton engineers missed.

A very slight differnce in angle of the movable jaw and it consistently clamps at true 90.

We used to be better than this folks.

The solution eludes me.

I hope you did not fix the Wilton Vise but returned it.  Rejecting  the inferior quality rather than accepting it is the only way we have of expressing our displeasure that actually matters to the bean counters making these sort of decisions.  You returning it for being inferior then the retailer returning it to the manufacturer costs both of them money. 

[JNewman]

1 hour ago, notownkid said:

 trucks headed south with wood products on them for the American market all with Quebec plates.  They all are running 2-3 large fuel tanks so they don't buy fuel and pay tax in the US but they we wear out the roads with their heavy loads.  North American Trade crap out of Washington has been a bust for America.   

 

I suspect the big tanks are for filling up with fuel in the US.  Fuel prices are pretty high in Quebec.

[notownkid]

There are only 2 truck stops from Canadian border to the Mass CT line I seldom see them in either other than eating.?   

[ThomasPowers]

Interesting because according to the ontario ministry of energy diesel is averaging US$2.61 a US gallon up there.

(had to convert Canada $ to US $ and liter to gallon... not as bad as the time I had to convert air pressure from kilopascals per square meter to altitude...)

[VaughnT]

3 hours ago, notownkid said:

When the EPA were issuing rule after rule... 

Corp. America has been shifting jobs but with the blessing of American Politicians...

That's exactly what I'm talking about, except you can't blame it on Corp. America.  This is all the doing of the politicians and the corporations are pretty much doing what they have to do to survive.

Combine this kind of stuff with a hundred other little things, and you get the snowball effect in full force.

 

[Bud in PA]

I have to laugh at the towns around here that make their residents recycle paper and cardboard.  What about the jobs of loggers that are lost because less wood is needed to make pulp. I figure the cost of fuel for me to drive to the recycle center, the wear and tear on my vehicle, and my time, is too costly for us on a fixed income. My fix for this is to recycle paper products into smoke in the burner in my back yard. And NO I will not stop burning wood and coal, to supplement my oil burner. 

[Kozzy]

17 hours ago, Charlotte said:

The problem in the US is that the people running the show are dedicated to their own careers.  I worked for a corporation that gradually closed down all research and product development squeezed the sales staff out of face to face customer contact and eventually sold the whole production end to three different levels of competitors.

American Industry was founded by men that knew and understood their products and wanted it to get better.   I knew we were in trouble when the industry trade magazine reported that US Steel had changed its name to USX.  They subsequently sold all their steel divisions. 

That happened before half the members here were born.

My Father worked for U.S.Steel Supply division for almost 40 years.  "Supply" sold fabricated products from fence to buckets to ladders and was very profitable.  In the mid 70's, Corporate changed all their accounting to "tonnage"--suddenly one of their most profitable divisions looked low-tonnage on the accounting and the bean counters soon shut down the whole division.  They tossed good profits in the toilet because it takes a lot of fence to make the kind of tonnage they wanted to see on the books.  

There were of course other issues such as refusing to invest in modernizing the plants which were last upgraded (or built) during WW2.  Not enough quick ROI compared to using the  same money to play financial games in the markets.

With idiotic thinking like that, it's no surprise they barely exist now.  According to WIKI, their production in 2014 was about the same as they produced in 1902.  

[Jim Coke]

Greetings All, 

Time for my 2c

.     Through the years I have watched many great company's consumed by foreign interest.. They import a competitive product at a low price at a loss and soon have all the business.. Soon after they purchase the original company and the price of the product goes back up.. In effect they are controlling our economy. The result is lower paying jobs and more taxes on lower salerys to support unemployment and health care for those out of work. Not to mention our prison system.. I don't personally care for Trump but at least he xxxx put the issue on the table.  Enough said..  What is the FIX?

Jim

 

[ThomasPowers]

I realized manufacturing was in trouble when I took economics classes in college that showed me how fully paid for tools still making stuff within spec at production rates standard for an industry were actually "losing money" over junking them and buying new ones and paying lots of money for the new ones.

[Anachronist58]

Many excellent and "acutely" salient points expressed in this thread - what a crew.

Robert Taylor

[VaughnT]

1 hour ago, Jim Coke said:

What is the FIX?

It's a battle with a thousand fronts, Jim.  

You have to start with education and get it back to where it was in the early part of last century.  It's really hard to explain the ramifications of an action to people that can't understand basic economics or reason.