jeremy k Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 My choice would be rivets, they add some design character and some contrast to the streamline effect of your 3 pieces. After all - your using blacksmithing techniques to make a trivet - use blacksmithing ways to joint and give it some life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Very clever design and use of material at hand. I think the suggestion of hidden, countersunk rivets would be the way to go. Nice work, no matter what joinery is used. Well done, sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I was thinking the same as JHCC that a mortise and tenon by bending the ends would look nice. Or make a separate tenon that is say a wide thin rectangular shape. I also like riveting as opposed to welding..either flush or headed. Maybe a contrasting color rivet made from copper, brass, stainless, or titanium which can be fire colored many hues. How stable is it with a pot on top that is a bit off center? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House of D Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Beautiful design! I like the idea of using angle iron to give the square profile with less effort. Good thinking, that might have to go to the ol' R&D department, like your swage block...rip-off and duplicate! I would personally do a counter-punched depression with a domed copper rivet inside. I bit of visual effect while keeping the clean lines. Like everything I've seen you do, very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I am interested in the number of people who think that adding some more visual details, like exposed joinery, will improve the piece. The reason I thought it was so striking was the purity of the form, with no extraneous details to distract the eye from the swirl. It is a fine example of less is more. The difference to a certain extent between the approach of an Artist and that of a Craftsman. Nothing "wrong" with either. But if the the starting point had been a bloom of metal that had been forged to a square bar then had a forged corner put in and then had the taper and curve formed, I could more readily understand the logical progression to a display of the joinery by obvious rivets. The manufacturing processes being the most important issue, and therefore taking precedence over the aesthetic theme of the piece. Here, the maker has opted for a clever and efficient modification of industrial section in order to achieve a clean, and definitely not an overworked piece. The clean lines express both that efficiency and and the swirl most elegantly. Disturbing that swirl with joinery seems totally counter productive and innapropriate to me. I love joinery and exposed construction details, but only when they contribute to and support the theme of the piece. Not just applied willy nilly because I am a blacksmith. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 An excellent bit of design carried out beautifully. I'm with Alan, any additional "feature" could well detract from the clean lines. I think I would seek to spot weld the components if possible, with a view to effecting an invisible fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Alan - I like the clean lines as is, although to me it appears to not be held together by anything, by fastening with flush rivets you still get the sense of attachment while maintaining the clean lines. Even with some smaller faceted rivets - I don't think it will take away from the looks due to the mass is in the main parts. To the untrained eye yes a spot weld on the bottom would be "ok", but at first glance one who knows better that is the first thing that comes to mind - oh it was just spot welded on the bottom. - Right or Wrong - not my place to judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Good thoughts, all, and I think it's pretty clear that there's no one best answer. All the options given so far ultimately boil down to questions of aesthetics -- most particularly to the aesthetics of craftsmanship and design. If I may, I'd like to explore that topic for a moment. The thing about this particular design is that it is characterized by very clean lines. One could easily imagine this being made in a variety of materials, from machined aluminum to cast plastic resin to laminated wood. Each version would function equally well, and would have its own aesthetic appeal. However, given that it is shown here in wrought steel, we have to take into account the nature of a wrought surface: subtle imperfection. True, this is not a deliberately rough finish, and JRigoni has wisely chosen not to create a deliberately irregular surface through overuse of the back end of a ball peen hammer. Even so, the process of drawing out the long leg of the angle iron and bending it around the pipe inevitably creates slight irregularities: the surface is not perfectly smooth, the curve is not absolutely regular, and the three pieces do not match absolutely perfectly. Now, these subtle imperfections do not detract from the piece. Indeed, they enhance it, as they provide pleasing variation to the eye and the hand. Our brains register (even if subconsciously) that this is a piece, in the words of John Ruskin, made by a human being for another human being, not merely the product of mass-production, one in thousands rather than one of a kind. It is in this context, therefore, that the decision must be made on how to attach the pieces together, and each option contributes its own characteristics to the design. A hidden weld on the bottom has the least effect on the design; a countersunk rivet, a little more; a domed or flat rivet, more still. A rivet in the same material will have no contrast in color, while one in copper or brass certainly will. The question then for the designer is whether they want to preserve the clean lines absolutely, to enhance them with a slight contrast, or to disrupt them with a dramatic contrast. Any one of these is a legitimate design choice. However, since good workmanship (in the words of David Pye) serves to preserve or enhance the quality of the design, whatever design choice has been made must be executed well. An irregular surface on a countersunk rivet would spoil the clean line, while a perfect finish on a protruding rivet might not give enough contrast. A sloppily done weld would cheapen the piece, while a clean weld (or a cleanly ground welded underside) would further demonstrate care in execution and therefore higher quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 A countersunk rivet done properly will be invisible unlike a weld *anywhere*. Knifemakers often do invisible rivets to fasten guards and pommels in place; of course these are generally nonferrous but the technique is the same. I would like to see one made perhaps with each leg a different material to provide a colour contrast for the swirl. (or a patinated silicon bronze...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Alan - I like the clean lines as is, although to me it appears to not be held together by anything, by fastening with flush rivets you still get the sense of attachment while maintaining the clean lines. Even with some smaller faceted rivets - I don't think it will take away from the looks due to the mass is in the main parts. To the untrained eye yes a spot weld on the bottom would be "ok", but at first glance one who knows better that is the first thing that comes to mind - oh it was just spot welded on the bottom. - Right or Wrong - not my place to judge. I quite agree definitely no right or wrong about it...well worthy of debate though. Part of my thinking was that I liked the little frisson of the mystery of its construction. The discrete weld underneath added to the sense that it is a sculpture about the swirl...whilst still being a fully functioning trivet. And while a rivet is a perfectly valid way of joining it whether flush, sunken or raised. Just marking out and drilling would lose the integrity of the existing surface patina, let alone the hammering and filing flush. The invisible rivet that Thomas refers to is fine on an armour bright or drawfiled surface, but in this case it will be at the expense of the patina which has resulted from the forging and forming process. A weld bead underneath (I certainly would not grind it off...I am not ashamed of it) is also perfectly valid. Grinding it off will only reduce the amount of metal and weaken it. Leaving the bead as laid is an opportunity to show how good your skill with the Tig torch is to anybody who does get curious and turn it over. I did have a great debate with myself about this issue many years ago. Having just made a gate with a very clever jointing system fixed by visible five-clout rivets. I had to make a follow-on set of drive gates for the same client and property but had to simplify the construction to meet the budget. The later gates, with a simple lap and welded construction, all welds left as laid as part of the decoration, were far more effective visually. The simple joints meant that one looked at the overall effect of the gates in their setting and not the clever details. I realised that the fussy jointing detail was really for the benefit of other blacksmiths rather than for the untrained eyes of the client and their visitors. It was a very valuable lesson for me. One of of my formative experiences was advice from Herman Gradinger the German Master, who, having looked at my portfolio said ..."you have many interesting ideas...but you often put too many of them into one piece". At the same time I heard Freddy Habermann saying "Every hammer blow should be eloquent" I have been trying to follow their advice ever since. Bringing these two philosophies together has been very useful to me over the years. Identifying the theme or spirit of the piece you are designing, and then devising the construction system and the process that best supports and enhances that theme. Cutting out anything that detracts.....Holding the theme in your head throughout the entire making process in order to make all the subsequent decisions that crop up... when to stop, when to do a bit more, when to scrap and start again. But it is not a prescriptive mantra. The best overall guide is for the maker to gauge what is most appropriate for the individual circumstance. He alone knows what his goal for the piece was. He knows what his clients are likely to respond to...if they are looking for historical reference then an arc weld is not going to be appropriate. If they are looking for an exciting sculptural addition to their collection then I happen to think an arc weld would be perfect! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Oooh this is really getting good now, I love a good discussion. I wouldn't go quite so far as to say there are NO wrong methods of joinery but won't go into examples. I'd have to experiment and determine what joins fit which theme I like being able to give potential customers choices and you never know when one might want something that gives us a priceless idea. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I am surprised that nobody has mentioned explosive welding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 You could also drill a hole in the internal parts and plug weld them on Then grind down and lightly forge the area to make it disappear . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I think you should make at least three of the trivets (tri-vets....three....get it??) Anyway, make one without rivets, one with recessed rivets and one with visible/raised rivets. That way, everyone is happy, happy, happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: I am surprised that nobody has mentioned explosive welding... I suppose just three forge welds would do too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 1 hour ago, arkie said: I think you should make at least three of the trivets (tri-vets....three....get it??) Anyway, make one without rivets, one with recessed rivets and one with visible/raised rivets. That way, everyone is happy, happy, happy. Explaining a rudimentary pun to us Arkie? I think you as a Cranky Old Guy are a bit under the weather. Perhaps you should Try Vets for a mood enhancing . . . biscuit. At least see how they treat you. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 One thing is for certain...they are 'triffic trivets t'rivet....being not at all derivative. Alan PS still think a weld fillet under is least intrusive and most appropriate...most appropriate poetically even if I cannot make it scan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Tried to reply to this topic 5 times...all disappeared. Make that 6 times........When will this madness EVER end??? Going over to another forum that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 On 28/12/2015 at 2:33 PM, jeremy k said: Alan - I like the clean lines as is, although to me it appears to not be held together by anything, by fastening with flush rivets you still get the sense of attachment while maintaining the clean lines. Even with some smaller faceted rivets - I don't think it will take away from the looks due to the mass is in the main parts. To the untrained eye yes a spot weld on the bottom would be "ok", but at first glance one who knows better that is the first thing that comes to mind - oh it was just spot welded on the bottom. - Right or Wrong - not my place to judge. Alan, are you thinking a spot of weld hidden behind the leg rather than spot welding the overlapping sections with a spot welding machine. If so, then I take the blame for not being specific enough with my posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 No I was not thinking of a spot of weld behind the leg or indeed a spot-weld...you would need some big machine and power supply for that thickness, you would also need to clean the scale off the mating surfaces to get electrical contact, and you would also destroy the patina and surface with the spot-welder contact tips. Neither was I thinking of a plug weld from the inside. My suggestion is just a simple tig, mig or stick bead along the underside of the joint. There would be no further work needed to prepare or fit or make good after. Just weld, wax, and enjoy the swirl. Alan p.s.I have just noticed I used the word fillet (rather than bead) above which may have confused the issue and made you think of welding to the leg. I would just assemble the thing face down and melt the curved joint edges together with the tig, I would stop before I got to the leg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Alan, my bad, the question was intended for Jeremy. However since you took the trouble to answer: I agree, it would require a large machine, and for that reason I did originally state in my suggestion "...spot weld the components if possible..". All is dependent on facilities, order of work and desired finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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