School Project I'm Doing (Please respond)

[SomeRandomStudent]

Hello, I am currently doing a homework project on blacksmithing in which we are required to come up with 3 questions about a topic of choice (I chose blacksmithing as you can see) I decided to join this forum so I could get some answers from actual blacksmiths that have had experience in the field instead of simply reading it on Wikipedia.

My first question is: When did blacksmithing originate and how different is being a blacksmith now compared to how it was around when it was first created.

My second question (I will only be putting one answer into my presentation): What inspired you to become a blacksmith?

My third question: What significance do you think blacksmithing has to today's world?

[Glenn]

Tubalcain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron.  Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron, Tubal-cain was the 5 great grandson of a fellow called Adam. You may have heard of him and his wife Eve.

There is one particular thread with questions to blacksmiths as to how they got started. There are 45 replies already posted. Many other threads on the site address the subject.

What significance do you think blacksmithing has to today's world? Blacksmiths MADE today's world. Take away everything metal and tell me what you see.

Add your location to your profile. From there we can suggest a blacksmithing group or organization that you can visit. This will do more for your report and education than you can ever imagine. Hands on experience or at least watching a blacksmith will be an experience you will NEVER forget.

[Panday]

If we're going to cite mythology I might suggest Haephestus as being a more likely originator. 

[ianinsa]

1 hour ago, Panday said:

If we're going to cite mythology I might suggest Haephestus as being a more likely originator. 

Panday, personally I don't care what your beliefs are, and frankly they are not really relevant, it's rude and uncalled for to refer to another person's religious beliefs as mythology!

When someone refers to their religious beliefs, and yes you may not believe in Lord Rama, the Jin, Ganesh, Seth, Pan, Lucifer, the great earth Mother, Buddha , Ron L Hubbard, Jesus , Yahweh or Muhammad etc. it causes uncalled animosity surely we have enough troubles in this world without you also peeing in the tea pot.

Ian   

[VaughnT]

1:  Blacksmithing originated as soon as someone figured out what Iron was and how to melt/hammer the stuff.  It is the natural descendant of copper and bronze age work.  The popularity/understanding of ironwork depends a lot on where in the world you were.

• blacksmithing is very different today because it's no longer needed for the most part.  Mass-production and international shipping has made the local blacksmith obsolete in 99% of the world.  The best one can hope for in the "civilized" world is to find a niche making quaint craft products.

2:  Historical interest.

3:  In the civilized world, blacksmithing has no real significance.  While a lot of the modern manufacturing techniques can trace their lineage directly back to the blacksmithing of the early 1900's, it is mechanized, computerized, industrialized and about as far removed from the average citizen as you can get.  Furthermore, the average person doesn't use or require hand-forged iron goods in their day-to-day life.  All of the metal around the house, from belt buckles to kitchen knives, from stair rails to window grills, is mass produced and folks only buy the work of a blacksmith because they think it's cute or they have plenty of money to burn.  The number of blacksmiths in the US that earn a living by forging metal as their mainstay.... very slim.

[Panday]

I might suggest then that references and citiations for a *school project* be limited to persons who lived with the period of historical record. 

I would also like to point out the sites guidelines ask us to refrain from talking about religion. Tubal Cain, Adam/Eve never should have been referenced at all. 

While I can site other references on Tubal-cane, I will instead warn you to behave or you will be shown the door.  YOU brought up religion,  Glenn the OWNER of this stie where you are a guest, mentioned historical persons that have been credited by a few sources.  Your definition of Historical record  is off a bit as well, as will be your access if you dont knock it off.

[ianinsa]

Vaughn , it may seem like I'm spoiling for a fight, which I'm not! Yet your comments are very Eurocentric (although you are American)   vast parts of the world and millions of people (not some arbitrary 1%) still rely on the local blacksmith. You refer to the civilized world? The middle east has been civilized for eons (not that you'd think it the way many of them are currently behaving) yet the blacksmith (well metalsmith) is still very relevant and is by no means a 'dying ' trade. The Affluent and there are still many of those and the hotels that serve them are still discerning customers. You might be surprised if you got the 'blacksmith spend' in the USA alone if you looked at upmarket residential and not at 'kings ' clientele.

[Smoggy]

There are as many answers to those three questions as there are Blacksmiths! I will now likely disagree with much that is posted above.....

1. Between the stone age and the iron age, there was....the bronze age......but before they found tin and made the first alloy (Bronze) was the Copper age, which is rarely referred to. So the smelting/refining.casting and forming of metal originated in the copper age. The major difference is that now we have such a great selection of metals and alloys that I very much doubt that any worker of metal in any sphere ever uses a fraction of them.

2. I'm not a Blacksmith, my training is in engineering, Blacksmithing is one of many disciplines that enhance my other skills and permit me to construct what I otherwise could not.

3.The same as it ever did, it is the means to produce an item in metal, The skills are the same as ever, the applications are manifold by comparison, it just happens that other technologies provide a plethera of alternate possibilities. In some parts of our world the original traditional blacksmiths shop still persists, providing goods and services to the local community in our modern world.

(p.s. do heed the advice above as regards a locality, it would surely score you some extra marks if you also submitted a few photo's taken on a visit to a local Smithy to proide evidence of your research, when the rest of your classmates just google wikipotluck !)

 

[Charlotte]

2 minutes ago, ianinsa said:

Vaughn , it may seem like I'm spoiling for a fight, which I'm not! Yet your comments are very Eurocentric (although you are American)   vast parts of the world and millions of people (not some arbitrary 1%) still rely on the local blacksmith. You refer to the civilized world? The middle east has been civilized for eons (not that you'd think it the way many of them are currently behaving) yet the blacksmith (well metalsmith) is still very relevant and is by no means a 'dying ' trade. The Affluent and there are still many of those and the hotels that serve them are still discerning customers. You might be surprised if you got the 'blacksmith spend' in the USA alone if you looked at upmarket residential and not at 'kings ' clientele.

I agree with this perspective.  In fact even in the US in present times blacksmiths are often sought out to make or repair parts of existing equipment that are no longer available on the local market.   I have seen farmers bring the cutting edge of plows brought to a blacksmith to repair and sharpen rather than pay the cost of a new one from the dealer. 

[VaughnT]

43 minutes ago, ianinsa said:

Vaughn , it may seem like I'm spoiling for a fight, which I'm not! Yet your comments are very Eurocentric (although you are American)   vast parts of the world and millions of people (not some arbitrary 1%) still rely on the local blacksmith. You refer to the civilized world? The middle east has been civilized for eons (not that you'd think it the way many of them are currently behaving) yet the blacksmith (well metalsmith) is still very relevant and is by no means a 'dying ' trade. The Affluent and there are still many of those and the hotels that serve them are still discerning customers. You might be surprised if you got the 'blacksmith spend' in the USA alone if you looked at upmarket residential and not at 'kings ' clientele.

Yep, my view is rather Eurocentric;  I live in "the West" and do all of my business here, so I can only speak to what I see in this corner of the world.  And if you look at the history of the world, most of the really great strides in blacksmithing have occurred in European/Western nations.  The local blacksmiths you reference do good work, but I dare say it's a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the world; mostly revolving around basic farming implements and not large-scale or ornamental work.  Blacksmithing isn't a dying trade, but the relevance of it to the majority of people in the world, I would venture, is dying. Yes, there are plenty of villages that have a smithy still operating, and the wealthy will always want hand-crafted goods to showcase their wealth.  I don't believe the number of tradesmen that are able to make a living by supplying those goods is growing.  

34 minutes ago, Charlotte said:

I agree with this perspective.  In fact even in the US in present times blacksmiths are often sought out to make or repair parts of existing equipment that are no longer available on the local market.   I have seen farmers bring the cutting edge of plows brought to a blacksmith to repair and sharpen rather than pay the cost of a new one from the dealer. 

That surely does happen.  However, we're a long long way away from the time when every small town had one or two blacksmith shops and farmers were lined up to get horses shod and equipment fixed.  

[ianinsa]

Vaughn, whilst I agree with you in principle wrt. The first world I was trying to bring some balance for the OP who for reasons known to himself neglected to add his location.

I would guess (this is from observation not research mind you) that there are more blacksmiths in Southern India than the entire population of Alaska (sadly only seen during Tourism season) then too there are probably more metalsmiths in Khan Al Khalil market in Cairo than in all of the British isles. Many of the goods that westerners presume are made by large automated machines(like nailclippers) are often made in a factory using smiths operating a series of fly presses.

On my last trip to Abu Dhabi my friend there got a contract to supply hand forged balustrades for some 140 villas(30m each plus a staircase plus a chandelier each) so even with a low oil price etc.  

 

[ausfire]

You will get a myriad of different answers to those questions, and while it was a good idea to contact the smiths on this forum, I think you will muddle your presentation by doing so.

If you would include your location in your profile, someone here would suggest a blacksmith nearby whom you could approach for a personal perspective. Take some good photos of this person at work, the smithy, the work produced, and base your presentation on profiling him (or her). 

As a teacher, I would place high value on the fact that you researched the subject well by taking the trouble and initiative to contact a person skilled in the craft, rather than regurgitating some doubtful material found on Wiki.

[Borntoolate]

relevance today???   

I have been blessed with 60+ year old house with PVC water line failure underneath it (Peer and Beam Construction, poor QC, PVC only pushed in about 1/8" into 1/2 SW fitting, totally just came apart!).  

I have decided to go back with pex piping.   I purchased a tool that requires a good bit of "Squeeze" to set the collar that seals the pex against the fitting.   My clearance under the house is about 12-14 inches.   I must reach over several other pipe runs that travel willy nilly and my leverage is crap.   Where I need to work seems to be the hub of all water lines under the house, yeah!   

I have been contemplating a tool that will allow me to easily pull the plier like handles together, on the pex collar. under my house, with minimal clearance, poor access due to stuff in the way and next to no leverage.   So far....   So FAR! no black widows but I know that this is a favorite place for them.    I have plastic down to keep me out of most of the mud and widows!!!   

Currently I am thinking a tee handle tool with a hole in the far end away from the tee handle.   Add a rope through the hole and hook it to the ends on the tool handles.   Then all I need is leverage to twist the tee handle, which I have.   I expect I can even twist at a bit of an angle if I give enough length beyond the hole.     I will make said tool by blacksmithing.   I will make it to order, to be able to complete this job without over much cursing, under my house, in the mud, with the widows....   etc etc.... I could make it other ways but it would not be as fun or interesting.   But if the tool fails to work I can easily modify it.  

Or maybe just call the plumber!!!!!

Oh, it is the guest house and currently not in use or critical.   So no big rush.  Prolly get there this friday when I am off work.   Now it's dark in morning and when coming home.   All the other work is done which was a MAJOR PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Install two PEX runs and clamp!

[Frosty]

Meteoric iron has been used probably at least as long as any other metals though not refined. I don't suppose anyone tried forging it seeing as the meteorites themselves were so useful as is. It's been forged since before Egypt, Tut was found with a meteoric iron dagger and that was the copper age.

At the great feast upon completion of the great Temple, King Soloman sat "Son of The Forge" at his right hand as first among the artificers responsible for building the Temple as the chief of all artificers. Father of all arts and tools.

Not to send folk to another site but this is the story. http://gulfcoastblacksmith.com/discoveries-gallery/the-blacksmith-and-king-solomon/

Relevance today? Blacksmiths are generally too self sufficient and independent to much care what others think relevant.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Panday]

I'd like to know what moderator edited my post, and suggest they check with an attorney before booting me.

 

Nothing was edited, a comment was added to your post as a warning, which you failed to follow, that is it,  Good bye.  You blew it.  Have your lawyer call us. Our lawyers rates are $500 hr, have your Credit Card handy to pay her, and remember the ban was your idea.

[ThomasPowers]

Panday I suggest you check with an attorney.  This site is privately owned and the owner and his operators can do with it what he likes. You are not required to use it if you disagree!  Or you can even pony up the money and create your own blacksmithing site.  I believe this one was created by someone who was not completely happy with how another site was done.  I do not agree with everything here; I've been moderated and warned before---once for using a phrase I had used to my Pastor in Church the previous Sunday, once for a typo; etc.  His site, his rules.

Now back on target: blacksmithing started with the beginning of the iron age---a time that differs depending on where in the world you look. Iron as produced is not a usable material without smithing it to consolidate and shape a refine blooms. (Though in China they did do a lot with iron casting at an early time period.) The modern blacksmith has much better access to high grade materials and *may* have a much deeper insight on their composition and how they work, (They didn't figure out that it was carbon that made iron into steel till 1786, France for instance---"Sources for the History of the Science of Steel. C.S.Smith)  Typically the earlier the era the higher status the smith was; however even till quite recently he was a respected member of the community---especially rural agricultural ones!

I got interested as I wanted to own medieval arms and armour and the SCA said "Make it!"

Modern times it is an Arts&Crafts endeavor; an outlet for creativity and frustration---(after a day working with computers hitting hot metal repeatedly is *ver* therapeutic!)  I know the fellow who was the blacksmith at Sandia National Lab, I started forging Titanium after hearing him tell about forging it for satellite pieces---preforms for machining without wasting so much costly material...; I never got to meet the one working at Tinker Air Force base. I did meet an orthopedic smith who worked in a hospital during WWII...

[Glenn]

From the research

Blacksmiths emerged in western Africa around 1500 BC.

Tools and techniques of the blacksmith date from the Bronze Age going back over 5,000 years.

Frosty put the blacksmith working in the time of King Solomon.

 

There are many references to Tubal-Cain from many difference sources. If anyone knows of a reference as to when the first blacksmith got started, please let me know and provide the URL. This subject has come up before and I would like a good answer when it comes up again.

[Glenn]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I believe this one (IForgeIron) was created by someone who was not completely happy with how another site was done.

This is true but did not involve IForgeIron as IFI had not been created at that time. Please let me try to explain.

At that time there was one blacksmithing site and a couple of lists. A member thought there was a better way to run the site, and spoke with the owner who was not interested in changing HIS site. The member left to start another site with the changes. Both sites were on line and people were members of both sites. I personally spoke with those present and dug through the site(s) archives to get the full story.

 

Thomas, IForgeIron was started by my collecting the tools and tricks of the craft in a spiral notebook. Others wanted the information and it was copied and sent to them. Then they wanted the new stuff and updates. My son suggested putting it on a web site so folks could go there and access the information contained in the spiral notebook. In the wee hours of the morning IForgeIron was born.

At that time there was no photo bucket or image hosting sites. You have to email any image to the people that wanted to see your photo. Instead of emailing images and always leaving someone off the list, it was suggested that they could send the images to IForgeIron and I would post them on the IFI site for 24 hours. At that time they would be deleted and replaced with the new images received. We were the gallery for another web site and it was done with the full knowledge of that sites owner. I made sure we were a support group for the other site, and not in competition with them.

In order to do more for the blacksmithing community, it was necessary to reorganize the IFI site with a forum utilizing different sections for different subjects, a gallery, and many other features. Commercial software licenses were purchased and the rest is history. IFI was still offered our support to the other site for several years.

[ThomasPowers]

Thanks for the clarification; I've been involved with blacksmithing on the net since the rec.crafts.metalworking days when it was all ascii based and remember the RFP for a blacksmithing sub group; been a moderator on a site or two and still am hanging around; posting under my name means i have to keep an eye on myself. I generally ignore the "politics" and factions and just get on with doing strange things to hot metal!

[John B]

22 hours ago, SomeRandomStudent said:

My third question: What significance do you think blacksmithing has to today's world?

Blacksmithing is still essential in todays economy, blacksmiths forge metal. What seems to have been overlooked is the actual items in every day use produced by forging,and used in many industries to produce common in use items, surgical equipment, automotive products, etc etc.

Due to the nature of forgings, in the forseeable future there will always be a demand for them. 

Blacksmithing is not just gates, domestic items, railings and blades although most of us seem to be working in that area, but encompasses all the people adjusting metal shapes by hot working, be it press, drop stamps or mechanical hammers.

[gote]

I think that there is a lot of over-reaction in this thread.
(I also think that someone who edits/adds to posts by others should sign the edit/addition.)
I read Glenn as that he half in joke pointed out to SRS that he could start his report by referring to the Bible. The fact that the Bible references Blacksmithing as a very early art is a demonstration that it has been considered important for a very long time and that is true and relevant regardless of religious belief.
As a religious/theological term, 'mythology' is not pejorative. A myth is "a narrative about a Divine course of events that has a fundamental meaning for human existence" (This is not from wikipedia but from a highly respected encyclopedia).
To say : "I don't care what your beliefs are" and "you also peeing in the tea pot" is - to put it mildly - not particularly courteous.
By 'historical record', most people mean something that is corroborated by a CONTEMPORARY record in the form of document or archeological find. Even if parts of the Bible are supported by such record, I am quite sure that Tubal-Cain is not.    

Blacksmithing refers to the working of iron so copper age is not really relevant to the question even if methods probably were transmithed :-).
However, I suggest reading. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313002057.
This puts the oldest found iron artifacts to ca 3200 BC.

you should pay more attention. This question has been asked and explained in detail. We even gave it a week long trial to prove it.

 

 

[Glenn]

From the article mentioned above

Abstract

The earliest known iron artefacts are nine small beads securely dated to circa 3200 BC, from two burials in Gerzeh, northern Egypt. We show that these beads were made from meteoritic iron, and shaped by careful hammering the metal into thin sheets before rolling them into tubes. The study demonstrates the ability of neutron and X-ray methods to determine the nature of the material even after complete corrosion of the iron metal. The iron beads were strung into a necklace together with other exotic minerals such as lapis lazuli, gold and carnelian, revealing the status of meteoritic iron as a special material on a par with precious metal and gem stones. The results confirm that already in the fourth millennium BC metalworkers had mastered the smithing of meteoritic iron, an iron–nickel alloy much harder and more brittle than the more commonly worked copper. This is of wider significance as it demonstrates that metalworkers had already nearly two millennia of experience to hot-work meteoritic iron when iron smelting was introduced. This knowledge was essential for the development of iron smelting, which produced metal in a solid state process and hence depended on this ability in order to replace copper and bronze as the main utilitarian metals.

Gote

(I also think that someone who edits/adds to posts by others should sign the edit/addition.)

Additions to posts can only be done by moderators or Admins are to be gray in color, and He/she was not banned for stating opinion, but for the now hidden threats toward IFI and its staff.  We do not delete, only hide from public view those posts that are offensive or threatening or otherwise violate the ToS here.  We have another thread where a member suggested we sign and note each edit/correction etc, and it got to be a total mess reading it for all the typo and URL corrections,

 

[beammeupscotty]

12 hours ago, Glenn said:

 

I am not sure I understand the difference between "deleting" and "hiding from public view."  

[Glenn]

Deleting is gone forever and can not be retrieved.

Hiding from view is just that, taking the post off line. The public can not see it, but it is available to moderators and admins for reference.

IForgeIron is fortunate to have members that take care of the site and make reports so the moderators and administrators can look into any issues that arrive. If for instance a post is made and the facts need checked, it is taken off line and hidden from view until research can be done to verify the facts. If a poster needs contacted about a post, the post is taken of line and hidden from view until that contact can be made. This keeps additional posts from being made and/or the thread getting totally out of hand. This usually take only a few hours and the post is then brought back to visual status. It is part of the process of keeping the site clean, accurate, and interactive with the poster.

 

[ianinsa]

On 12/13/2015, 4:48:31, gote said:

As a religious/theological term, 'mythology' is not pejorative. A myth is "a narrative about a Divine course of events that has a fundamental meaning for human existence" (This is not from wikipedia but from a highly respected encyclopedia).
To say : "I don't care what your beliefs are" and "you also peeing in the tea pot" is - to put it mildly - not particularly courteous.

Gote, if you check the dictionary definition of 'mythology ' maybe you'll understand !

Glenn, my understanding that is, with actual dateable iron (cast not meteoric) artifacts comes from my travels around China. They have artifacts from the Zhou dynasty of iron items.

I believe there have been recent finds of iron foundries and artifacts that C14 dating had placed at much earlier than this in Uttar Pradesh in India.