Frosty Posted August 27, 2022 Author Share Posted August 27, 2022 Taking pictures of flames in broad daylight makes judging colors nearly impossible, especially over the internet. I can't see the flame at all in either pic but that's not necessarily bad. It's hard to say though. The second pic looks pretty HOT, how long was it burning before you took the pic? Next time do it in the shade or twilight so we can evaluate by color more accurately. Lighting is THE king of taking photos! The pic through the burner intake ports is in the shade against a dark background so I can barely see it, let alone the important details. What little I can see LOOKS like the jet is way too close to the mixing tube. On top of that you're running an oversized jet. No wonder your forge was running so rich. I know we're having this discussion in the thread I authored about building and TUNING a T burner but I have to ask if you read it. My observation is is mostly guesswork I shouldn't have said what I did in the above paragraph. I need good pictures or I can't be of help. A little basic photography. Pictures of light sources will appear brighter than they are but external light will effect the subject of the photo significantly. The forge is radiating the light we need to look at but the SUNSHINE and bright background is glaring it out and killing accurate evaluation. Shoot pics of the forge in dim light so the flame and temperature colors RADIATING from the interior show up more clearly. Make sense? The mig tip is photographed with REVLECTED light so you need light shining ON THE JET, not around the outside of the T against a dark backdrop. This is exactly opposite of what a good pic requires. If you'd taken the pic against a white backdrop the jet would be in silhouette and the alignment and gap distinct. Or shine a light in the intake, reflected highlights will effect things but the pic will be clear enough to do some good. Please, I LIKE helping folks but I need YOU to do your part and provide good information. It's just another short learning curve. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymber Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 The second photo was after 10 minutes when the forge had come up to temperature. I'll try to get some better pictures when I'm back in the shop next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 A neutral flame, in a sufficiently large forge interior to combust the fuel completely, also makes no dragon's breath; this seems to be the case here. With your forge running wide open at both ends, it still reaches orange-yellow incandescence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 The first photo looks like the forge interior is raw blanket. Is this the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymber Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 (edited) I'm told it's some kind of pizza oven insulation with an unknown spray on it. That could be some kind of rigidizer or kiln wash, I'm not sure. The stuff feels like hard polystyrene with a slightly cotton wool ish texture. I only built the new burner, the forge was built by another guy before I was at this shop. The burner he built with it was a massively oversized T burner with mismatched threads mashed together with PTFE tape and chokes welded over the air intakes. I'm told it ran at 45+ PSI and sounded like a jet engine and several feet of fire came out of every opening. I don't have a whole lot of expectations for the forge - I'm working with it for now but I don't expect the refractory to last long and I'm certain it would melt under hot borax. When it degrades too far to work properly I'm planning to build a brick pile forge with IFBs and a proper zirconium silicate wash. You can't get plistix in this country but there is Vitcas Zircon Paint Coating and it looks like it's the same chemistry as the washes people talk about in the refractory threads here. Edited August 28, 2022 by Mod30 Commercial link removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2022 Author Share Posted August 28, 2022 I'll be watching for the pics, I'd like to be of meaningful help. Boy, your description of how the forge was made and how clueless the last burner builder was gives me the willies. A tuned 1" T should all melt appliance grade rock wool like you find in pizza ovens and insulated stove pipe. I don't know if it's a breathing hazard so I'd treat it like it is. Relining that forge with Insulwool and Kastolite wouldn't be hard, it's a good shape and size. D or (vault) shapes provide excellent flame movement. A brick pile is an excellent option and reconfigurable which is a plus. Plistex is marketed under a different name in the UK but there are other comparable products, a pottery supply will carry or know who carries the stuff. 3,000f, high alumina and fires hard are the main features you're looking for. I've heard good things about Vitcas products but I don't have direct experience so I can't opine. Right now I think your forge is working well or close enough for a little fine tweaking. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 I just looked it up; it is a zirconium silicate based mixture, which will probably work okay. But, he would probably be better off Plistix or an equivalent product, that can be built up to something thicker than a thin paint like coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2022 Author Share Posted August 28, 2022 Agreed, there are equivalent plistex type products available in the Kingdom but it'll take a little looking. They used to come up easily in searches but now I have too much trouble getting through all the marketing . . . stuff to do anything but perfunctory web searches over seas. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 28, 2022 Share Posted August 28, 2022 Yes. marketing B.S. is pretty weird in the UK. Some of the biggest refractories manufacturers are UK based, and yet it is a terrible market to search for their same products! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2022 Author Share Posted August 28, 2022 Intrusive marketing is everywhere anymore, you see signs on light poles advertising making YOUR adds come up first in searches for a price. For a price you can have your "wonder wigit" adds show up in any search with your list of key words. Yesterday I was looking for a labeled pic of wooden wagon wheels to refresh my memory and my searches were hitting on adds with, wheel, tire, wagons, wood, label makers and vaguely associated products. They almost completely obliterated useful sites and dang if opening a hit to see if it had anything useful puts me on their "opt in" spam list or demanded I turn adblock off. I've never liked commercials but the more aggressively a product is marketed the less likely I am to buy it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 What I mind about web marketing is that it seems to be crowding out actual information, which I used to find quite easily; nowadays the information is buried twenty pares back, behind a bunch of junk advertisements, many of which have little or nothing to do with the terms in my word search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 Exactly, the first time I did a web search there weren't ANY internet ads I just got valuable hits on exactly what I was looking for. My first search saved me enough to pay for itself for about 3 months. The first day I discovered Theforge. list and Artmetal. list and more metalheads than I dreamed were there to talk to. I just started talking on a thread before I knew I who to or where I was talking. That's how I met the late great Chris Ray and the wild and crazily talented Artmetal and theforge lists gangs. I started learning things I didn't imagine existed. I just happened to know how to give copper alloys a patina ranging from light tan to hard flat black with a liver of sulfur solution and just jumped into my first thread and Frosty hit the internet! It's been a wild ad crazy ride ever since. I offer a toast to the free flow of information and the electronic wizardry that brings us together! speaking of something to toast. Who's watching Artemis Launch tomorrow 08/19 the window opens for 120 minutes starting at 8:33 am Eastern time? I will. And there's my second toast of the night. Back to the moon and beyond! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 I think they had to scrub the moon mission due to a fuel leak problem. https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/nasas-artemis-one-mission-moon-rocket-launch-scrubbed-delays It seems that Google has become the leader in unwanted adds, when I do a search for something. DuckDuckGo seems to have a little less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 The fuel leak turned out to be broken insulation on the LOX tank and it was atmospheric condensation vapor. The scrub was caused by an engine problem #3 wasn't chilling properly, all the engines MUST be LH temp and very close to the same and one just wasn't chilling so they needed to know why. Yeah, I'm up before 4am AK time anyway and was watching live. As I will be Friday when the next window opens. This is pretty normal, launches are special because they didn't get scrubbed. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.J.Lampert Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 i have had less than optimal performance (hot enough to forge with bit not to weld) over the last while i have noticed a decrease in max temp and after some investigation have discovered considerable slop in the joint between the flair fitting and the t what should i do to fix this or is it best to get a new T (pic for reference) TIA M.J.Lampert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayardStrachan Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 Got off my rear end and made a burner finally. I couldn't get the materials listed in the plans as all the gas fittings are different in NZ so I had to improvise a bit. Basically, it is a m12 bolt with a hole drilled perfectly through the center, an the mig tip threade into the hole. The T gets an m12 tapped hole that the bolt screws into, and the gas fitting goes over top of the bolt on the opposite end to the mig tip. I can't see any reason why this won't work, but if anyone else can spot an issue, please tell me, I don't want to create a bomb!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 2, 2022 Author Share Posted September 2, 2022 Should work if the jet is aligned straight down the mixing tube. Check the supply fitting at the bolt with soapy water to check for leaks. Let us know how it works please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 2, 2022 Author Share Posted September 2, 2022 20 hours ago, M.J.Lampert said: after some investigation have discovered considerable slop in the joint between the flair fitting and the t Sorry I'm a bit late responding MJ. Sounds like you ran the pipe tap too deeply in the T. I don't know of a good solution other than replacing the T, though I've considered filling the threads with braze and retapping but have never tried this. I've also been having trouble finding flare to MPT fittings with an ID small enough to tap for a mig tip. Guys in the club have switched to flare to a standard bolt thread some welding a nut to the T. I'm afraid I don't know the thread size so I'm afraid you'd need to take the tap to make up to the mig tip with you and test against the appropriate flare with you to the store as go/nogo gauge to find one that works. If you stick with the same flare to MPT fitting, remember to stop tapping the T early so the fitting tightens in the hole BEFORE it bottoms against the hex faces. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymber Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 I didn't get a chance to fire up the forge last night but I did get a better photo of the jet gap. Next time I've got it running I'll try and get a better forge photo. It should be easy now that it's getting dark in the evenings again, I've just got a list of stuff that needs welding first. The jet gap looks like it's about 1/2D like the document says. It did seem to be burning pretty well. 2 hours ago, Frosty said: I've also been having trouble finding flare to MPT fittings with an ID small enough to tap for a mig tip. I had that problem working with BSP parts. I ended up using a cone seat union. They're mostly for pneumatics and fuel lines I think but they're widely available and the walls are thick enough that you've got plenty of material to drill and tap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayardStrachan Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 6 hours ago, Frosty said: Let us know how it works please. Frosty The Lucky. Will do, it is actually well aligned, which surprised me a bit, considering i didn't even use a lathe, only a drill press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 The photo shows your MIG tip to be slightly out of axial alignment with the mixing tube; it is also not centered with the mixing tube. Furthermore, the mixing tube is the same size as the two air openings; this means that the swirl that begins as those two air paths converge, are not supplemented with the funnel shape, which a smaller center opening causes to be present in the right pipe fixture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 2, 2022 Author Share Posted September 2, 2022 5 hours ago, ymber said: The jet gap looks like it's about 1/2D like the document says. That's the departure point, it gets the burner close enough to fine tune. It's burning pretty well but it looks like it's a little rich though it's hard to tell from pictures on the internet. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayardStrachan Posted September 3, 2022 Share Posted September 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: The photo shows your MIG tip to be slightly out of axial alignment with the mixing tube; it is also not centered with the mixing tube. Furthermore, the mixing tube is the same size as the two air openings; this means that the swirl that begins as those two air paths converge, are not supplemented with the funnel shape, which a smaller center opening causes to be present in the right pipe fixture. I think the photo makes it look like th mig tip is a little bit skewed, because I checked and double checked all that. As for the mixing pipe being the wrong size, I had to use a 1in T and a short 1in threaded pipe, with a 3/4in pipe pressed into the inside. Again, I don't see any reason this won't work, but I am not an expert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 Did you put an internal bevel at the end of the pipes to create a small funnel area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayardStrachan Posted September 5, 2022 Share Posted September 5, 2022 No, I didn't actually bevel the edges. What you said earlier actually made me realize that I may have done it a bit wrong. The 3/4 inch pide only goes about halfway up the 1 inch pipe, which puts it about 70mm below the bottom of the T. If that makes sense, would this mess up the whole venturi effect? Do you think I should redo it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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