The one insurmountable issue is that ignorance and belief often come hand in hand, at least for the low to average IQ crowd. Ignorance is a treatable condition but all to often belief is not, my grandmother died believing the lunar landings where faked, even when I could clearly see artifacts left their on my neighbors telescope. And we all know what happens when some old sick man convinces some ignorant youth that the only way to heaven is to put on a stylish vest. Any if us that have raised kids (and most of us that survived our own childhood) can atest to how hard it is to convince a youth the their dear friend Joe is dead wrong about something ("if you beat the cops home and get out if the car and in the house before they get their they wont arrest you" being a great example) we see it all the time, people believing the rederic they see on the evening news, or Carson Daily, or the latest political or other "infomercial" 

blacksmithing is a lot like math, their usually is more than one way to get the answer or forge an object, but the basics are always the same, 2+2 is 4, 2x2 is 4, the square of 2 is 4... Cut, taper, draw, twist, upset, punch, drift...

It is a funny thing that the less somebody knows about a subject, the more prone he is to deviate from good advice. I have never had problems with customers who know what they are doing. It is the ignorant who want to show off their "expertize"

Göte 

Same xxxx different day my friend, I say "thanks" to people leaving the shop they wave their hand in my direction and say "no thanks" people are conditioned to mistrust salesmen, but we're all guilty of it.

Phil

 

 

Turns out that this is a known issue:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect folks who know little about a subject think they know a lot more than they do.

Thanks for the link Thomas, good article.

Frosty The Lucky.

I second frosty on this , thanks Thomas. I mostly blame parent/parenting skills of "our generation" telling kids 'my you are clever'(every kid gets a prize) instead of the more appropriate 'you eedjit(an Irish term of endearment) you really duffed that one' and allowing their kids to suffer from 'malnuliteracy' .

Great link, Thomas.  I've referenced that study in the past.

Interestingly, I took an IQ test the other day.  Just woke up and was working on my first cup of coffee when I started on it.  40 minutes later, I was ranked as "average".  That really got me thinking - half asleep and groggy without my coffee.... and I'm still as cognitively functional as the average person?  It sure explains a lot about this world, though.

 

Dunning-Kruger effect is very real but I have also found that actually starting to DO something you haven't done before will wipe out that effect pretty quickly.  When I first started blacksmithing I was very attracted to it, having completed exactly one project in a beginner class I was pretty sure I could get the hang of it.  Didn't take me long to figure out it'd take me at least a DECADE to "get the hang of it."    Looks easy, sure, I can do that....    not exactly.   

There's the difference in that statement right there Spanky. Saying "I can do" a thing isn't the same as saying "I know how to do a thing". I know this is slipping into semantics but too many folk on the low end of the curve don't know the difference between "can" and "know".

I "can" fly a helicopter I just don't know how. Before the accident screwed up my depth perception and eye hand that level of fine motor control was easy for me.

I've seen your work Spanky you most certainly CAN blacksmith you just have skills to develop. World of difference between that ane what I call the "WOW kids" who KNOW . . . X.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thank you Thomas! Interesting link.

It seems that it is a common belief that everybody can do anything. This is absloutely wrong. Right is: Most people can LEARN to do most things.

I do not rember where I saw it but there are research results that indicate that "every kid gets a price" is bad for them. That means that they get no real satisfaction from succeeding.

Göte

In smithing  hot steel does treat everyone the same.  However people who do not meet it's stringent criteria are all treated harshly! Stupid does *hurt*!

The Dunning-Kruger Effect certainly explains modern driving skills: 50% of the drivers think that they are above average because they break all the rules (that only stupid people follow) and get there ahead of everyone else, and 50% think that they are better drivers because they manage to avoid the crazies in the other half and still get there alive..........

 

 

Around horses we call that "knowing enugh to be dangerus" lol. 

Glenn said somthing to me about lerking on another forum (nonblacksmith) untile he had "learned enugh to be ignorant" some wisdome there. I find the more I learn the dummer I get...

i think in oklihoma the ratio os closer to 90/10, lol. This coming from a guy that learned to drive in Phoenix. 9 months out of the year we had 50 (ok maybe 25) states worth of driving insanityes desend on us, for 3 only the folks crazy enugh to acualy oive there full time.

Nothing more serene than driving in a college town---during summer break!  Back when I was going to college I would always park my car whenever we got ice and snow and walk.  My roommate asked me why as "You grew up driving in ice and snow" my reply was that the rest of the people in that southern college *hadn't* and so I was perfectly happy to *not* be sharing the streets with them.  (Of course if there was an emergency run to be made I was the designated driver during bad weather)

Nothing more serene than driving in a college town---during summer break!  Back when I was going to college I would always park my car whenever we got ice and snow and walk.  My roommate asked me why as "You grew up driving in ice and snow" my reply was that the rest of the people in that southern college *hadn't* and so I was perfectly happy to *not* be sharing the streets with them.  (Of course if there was an emergency run to be made I was the designated driver during bad weather)

Story of my life, living in a college town. All those high SAT scores, and no-one seems to know what DON'T WALK means.

Getting back to the title (if not the subject) of this post, my mom likes to say that the only things worth doing are "making things" and "making sense".

Most good judgement comes from experience, and it seems most of that experience just comes from bad judgement.

 

And most of us are happy to share some of those bad experiences so the new crop doesn't have to repeat them but can go on to make new and unusual mistakes.  I think the printed word was designed so that folks can profit by what has been previously learned the hard way!

And the fools still make the same mistakes...

And the fools still make the same mistakes...

"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no need to read the old IFI threads'."  -- First Letter of Saint ThomasPowers to the Curmudgeons.

"Woe to you, Newbies and Greenhorns! For you watch a few YouTube videos and think you're going to make a sword; you refuse to learn the basics and think you are masters. That, and you don't put your location in your profile. Verily, I tell you, you will end up in the outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. And overthinking." -- The Gospel According to Saint Frosty, Chapter 3

ROTFLMMFAO! 

Thank you good sir, I needed that!

Interestingly, I took an IQ test the other day. 

 

As a lifelong member of a well known "High IQ Society", ... let me be the first to say, that conventionally measured "IQ", ... is a very poor means of judging intelligence.

This is particularly true of those who immure themselves within the exceedingly narrow confines of Academia.

One of the most intelligent employees I ever had, was a first generation Mexican immigrant, who's limited communication skills precluded him from ever truly expressing his abilities.

Had our backgrounds been reversed, ... I would have been working for Him .....

 

.

Edited September 16, 201510 yr by SmoothBore

JHCC; you have me preaching to the Choir!

JHCC; you have me preaching to the Choir!

And me singing to the Priest!

Here's another for "De Re Smith Biblica."

"Use the KISS method just don't give it tongue!" The Cranky Canticle, Book III chapter VII, verse Ad.

Frosty The Lucky.

Very fun topic. I am retired now so I can have fun with the past. When four scientists showed up with a new side scan sonar pulsed array system the locator beacon was on top of the unit. Since it was autonomous it was not beyond the possibility of being lost and it was positive buoyant when not under power. A young intern pointed out that floating the transducer was out of the water and could not make a signal unless submerged in water.

The PHD's laughed and deployed the item its propulsion failed and it floated to the surface with no way to locate it. At 10K a day for the research vessel it took five days to find the wayward piece of equipment.

My favorite quote is I have been doing this for 30 years and the young one replied it is not my fault you have been doing it wrong for thirty years.

Positive advice never put anything into the ocean that you care about. I would also say listen to the new and young they are a lot smarter than we were.

Exactly. The ancient blacksmith saying I made up some years ago referring to children being, "opinions and ideas unpolluted by knowledge" I cherish kids around when I'm smithing.

They have most of the brain power of an adult just not the library. Fresh view and thoughts. Good stuff. I just have to remind myself more often the older I get, cerebral petrification happens if you live long enough.

Frosty The Lucky.

"The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no need to read the old IFI threads'."  -- First Letter of Saint ThomasPowers to the Curmudgeons.

 

No doubt old threads are full of valuable info. There is a small small snag, however. All pictures are gone so the info becomes meaningless.

Observations by a fool i.e. me

Göte