SReynolds Posted April 9, 2015 Author Share Posted April 9, 2015 ....in this scenario, to remain on topic and NOT begin a terminology/bashing war; it would be a fuller.I can't move metal like that. I really don't have any reason to, but I have problems with tendinitis. I know you are supposed to barely grip the hammer. I can't quite figure out how you barely grip the hammer. A three or four pound hammer....??? and throw down on 1" round or square? I only work with 3/8" and smaller and some flat horse shoe stock. Very little 1/2" and when I do....that 1/2 inch feels like it worked me over. Besides; folks pay to watch me forge, not heat metal. if I work with 1/2"-3/4"- 1" stuff they will have to watch me heating the iron...pumping the bellows...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 When I teach I have a wide range of hammers available for their use, (different sizes, shapes, dressing, etc) when they have a problem I like to use their hammer to fix it to show them it's not a hammer issue but a hammer control issue. Though sometimes I do ask them to switch hammers for one that will work better with their innate style of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Jargon is important because it helps us communicate concepts, describe processes, and label tools. I call a concave tool a swage, and a convex tool a fuller, and I throw the term die around for several things. We use the same word for the tool as the process it is used in, like a swage. Then you get a guy who does hydraulics and we say "swage" and he looks for a tool to put the fitting on a rubber hose or metal tube... Lots of ambiguity built into our language... "When I nod my head, hit it!???" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crunch Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 I barely qualify as an amateur hobbyist, but isn't this like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) This aint my pic. I copied from another thread. I think it answers the question.http://www.iforgeiron.com/uploads/monthly_2015_04/x20150403_174411.thumb.jpg.f6c452a7dd51f843fb984e940cbde7b8.jpg.pagespeed.ic.K_m0zu8ipv.webp Edited April 11, 2015 by Borntoolate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragon Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 I just thought I'd chime in. The words we use for things can be funny sometimes. When we use familiar words that we have known and used for years, we often don't think about them as much, we just use them and assume we know all we need, that they mean what they mean and that's that.Merely using some new words, some different arrangement of symbols and sounds, and suddenly, the experience of how the world works changes. That's magic, right there.I used to know you just hit metal with a hammer to shape it. And that's true. But until someone thought, for whatever reason, to call the hammer faces 'dies', I never really thought about the process in the way I do now. I knew of dies as parts in a machine that stamped or molded to specific shapes, but had never applied that thought to hammering steel. I mean sure, I knew about different shapes of peins and fullers and swages, but the use of this word just made something click in a way it didn't before. It maybe isn't accurate in a purely technical sense, and surely not in a traditional sense, but it forms an analogy that can change your thinking, if you're so inclined. Not every way of looking at something speaks the same to each person.This isn't to say correct terminology shouldn't be encouraged. It's essential for clear communication between people who are already experts. But it can get in the way sometimes for less experienced people, who don't have the experiential framework on which to attach the correct terms. Any wording that helps at least some new people get a better sense for something that they lacked before is a good thing, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted April 11, 2015 Share Posted April 11, 2015 (edited) Speaking of wording that helps you understand concepts better;-) This is probably a great time to introduce a Clifton Ralph-ism. (I think Roy Bloom did a video with Clifton's permission called "Clips and Cow Pies" which is focused mainly at farriers but is still probably useful anyway ;-) Imagine that your steel is a big wet juicy COW PIE... Now what is going to happen if you drop a bowling ball on it? Its going to spread out evenly in all directions around where you drop it. Now what will happen if you drop a brick on it? It will mainly fly way from the long sides, some from the short sides, and very little at the corners... Now if you smack it with a stick, what will happen? The Pie will fly away from the stick, perpendicularly to the axis of the stick... The same thing happens on a smaller scale with different hammer shapes. A rounding hammer or a ball peen moves the steel in all directions around the face of the hammer. A square (like a Hofi or Czech style hammer), or rectangular faced hammer (like a French pattern) moves off of the edges more and a bit less off of the corners. Then with a Cross peen or a Straight peen most of the movement of the steel is perpendicular to the peen, you get a lot of stretch and not much along the axis of the peen. You can use one shape of hammer to spread, and bevel, and fuller, but you can also take advantage of different hammer shapes to increase your efficiency with those operations. With Brian's "die" concept and with the tilting hammer technique using the square shouldered rounding hammer you can squeeze these out of one hammer. The Brazeal style rounding hammer is kinda like a nice multipurpose tool. The Hofi hammers with their heavily crowned square faces are also very handy. Like I said in a previous post, I like to use several specialized hammers to do those same processes. Generally a specialized tool will do a better job at that one operation than a multipurpose tool, but if you can only take one tool with you, then you are probably better off with the multipurpose tool. The other advantage to the Brazeal style rounding hammer, and the tilted face technique is that you aren't switching hammers in the middle of a heat, you just tilt and go... I do tilt the hammer face as I work to do specific things, but I don't want to be forced to do that too much, because I don't trust myself. There are a few operations where I tilt the hammer, and I lock my hand position too much, and that is hard on my hands (like drawing clips on a horse shoe...) So I try to be careful not to put myself in a situation where I would be tempted to lock into a position that would hurt me. We all have to recognize where our faults are and try to either retrain them, or work around them. Keep hammering, keep learning, and keep thinking, its the only way to get better at this... Edited April 11, 2015 by SJS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 SJS it is not the rounding hammer that makes the most impression it is the edges and you can use that technique with any hammer. It is about dressing the hammer correctly that is the key. There are only five ways you can hit with the hammer flat, left and right side and toe and heal of the edge of the hammer face. I have dressed harbor freight $8.00 hammer the right and got the same results as a $300. Legend made blacksmith hammer. and still have $292. in my pocket. I have also done videos on the proper ergonomics of hammering there is a lot of bad information out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I belive that it is a usefull anoligy, to describe using the diferent parts and shapes of the hammer and anvil "as dies" to shape steel. It helps some folks that are having problems wrapping there heads around how to eficeintly use their tools. "Use the whole anvil, you payed for it" , the cow pie , using modeling clay... Anything we can do to get the point across it useful. It certainly dosnt deserve to be trated as herasy. If you find the tearm grating sorry, but most of the "scientific" (victorian era was all about "scientific") treateses that explain the details of isolating and shaping steel and iron are focused on power hammers and train shops. The information is enligtening, and can be very redly translate to hand hammering. I agree that a hammer is a hammer, but like love a hammer can be a lot of things. I love Sandy and my daughters equaly, but in vastly diferent ways. And i certainly wont use my driving hammer to shape shoes or my rounding hammer to drive nailes. But it is, in some cercumstances a usefull anolagy in describing how the serfaces of the hammer and anvil interact with the steel.please put away the torches and pitchforks, no need for the faggots of wood, and certainly dont tie some good o'l boy from Missassipy to a fence post. Like the rest of us, he is just trying to get somthing out of his brain, threw his mouth, into some one elses ears and into their brain with out lossing to much in translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I am not seeing pitchforks and torches, I am seeing a society desperately striving to stave off attacks upon it's communication system; our common language. If one cannot understand the left side, right side or face, toe or heel of a hammer, changing the terminology isn't going to help; it is going to hurt. No one is going after Brian for trying to be helpful; the bottom line is that as our language deteriorates our ability to communicate falls with it. Words have actual meanings; effective communication involves choosing the most correct or appropriate word or combination thereof to describe the process at hand.Willfully ignoring existing terminology and or purposely misusing words is neither helpful in transmitting today's school of thought nor is it helpful in preserving it for the future at which time both scholars and artisans alike will consult period dictionaries to decypher our comments. Rounding die, crosspein die and roman claw dies will all be quite mysterious to them. Fuller, ballpein hammers and anvil edges hopefully will not. Our vocabulary ties us together and enables us to express ideas. Remember most human strife is a direct result of miscommunication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I am not seeing pitchforks and torches, I am seeing a society desperately striving to stave off attacks upon it's communication system; our common language. If one cannot understand the left side, right side or face, toe or heel of a hammer, changing the terminology isn't going to help; it is going to hurt. No one is going after Brian for trying to be helpful; the bottom line is that as our language deteriorates our ability to communicate falls with it. Words have actual meanings; effective communication involves choosing the most correct or appropriate word or combination thereof to describe the process at hand.Willfully ignoring existing terminology and or purposely misusing words is neither helpful in transmitting today's school of thought nor is it helpful in preserving it for the future at which time both scholars and artisans alike will consult period dictionaries to decypher our comments. Rounding die, crosspein die and roman claw dies will all be quite mysterious to them. Fuller, ballpein hammers and anvil edges hopefully will not. Our vocabulary ties us together and enables us to express ideas. Remember most human strife is a direct result of miscommunication. I agree with this 100%.I have noticed over the years that some US American blacksmiths refer to "dies" under their power hammers and I presume that is why this confusion with hand hammers has come about. Over here, in my experience, we usually refer to the power hammer tools as "pallets" or top and bottom tools. Here the word "die" usually refers to something with a "concave" "negative" or "hollow" shape into which metal or plastic or rubber etc. is poured, stamped, pressed or twisted. The most obvious and arguably oldest example would be dies for stamping coin. There is an associated trade / skill of die-sinking, which reflects this notion of a hollow form. There is not a trade or skill known as die-raising. Given this background it would not occur to me to confuse the two.If you wish to explain the controlled movement of metal under different tool profiles I have found that everyone (so far) remembers how a rolling pin affects the pastry. The pastry (workpiece) only stretches at right angles to the axis of the rolling pin (fuller) and that the pastry is then rotated 90˚ in order to stretch it in the other direction. If the rolling pin was pressed into the pastry in a series of parallel lines rather than rolling, the pastry would still move in the same direction relative to the axis of the pin (fuller). Spreading out and forging a taper can be readily understood by the layman using this analogy.If you wish to demonstrate the controlled movement of metal under the hammer, give your student a bar of plasticine and left them use their fingers (or a hammer) on it for enlightenment without the concomitant complication of having to deal with heat and resistance to the hammer.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 To both Arftist and Allan, well put chaps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 That ship has saled, thank boston public schools and the media. I agree that each word has is own flavor, and i my self cringe at the sight of "gray" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I agree with this 100%.I have noticed over the years that some US American blacksmiths refer to "dies" under their power hammers and I presume that is why this confusion with hand hammers has come about. Over here, in my experience, we usually refer to the power hammer tools as "pallets" or top and bottom tools. Here the word "die" usually refers to something with a "concave" "negative" or "hollow" shape into which metal or plastic or rubber etc. is poured, stamped, pressed or twisted. The most obvious and arguably oldest example would be dies for stamping coin. There is an associated trade / skill of die-sinking, which reflects this notion of a hollow form. There is not a trade or skill known as die-raising. Given this background it would not occur to me to confuse the two.If you wish to explain the controlled movement of metal under different tool profiles I have found that everyone (so far) remembers how a rolling pin affects the pastry. The pastry (workpiece) only stretches at right angles to the axis of the rolling pin (fuller) and that the pastry is then rotated 90˚ in order to stretch it in the other direction. If the rolling pin was pressed into the pastry in a series of parallel lines rather than rolling, the pastry would still move in the same direction relative to the axis of the pin (fuller). Spreading out and forging a taper can be readily understood by the layman using this analogy.If you wish to demonstrate the controlled movement of metal under the hammer, give your student a bar of plasticine and left them use their fingers (or a hammer) on it for enlightenment without the concomitant complication of having to deal with heat and resistance to the hammer.Alan Alan - how do you refer to a spring swage - like the type used to make an acorn or a ball? Or do you consider these Dies? - no worries on my part but as you've said terminology is different - I just would like to know. Names of tools and types of tools can surely be confusing around the world. Just trying to know more terms for the different parts of the world so as to reply to others with correct terms VS. geography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Ah yes "clapper dies", at least thats what I called them when picking some second hand ones from a notable smith.....Hi did get what I was on about but defiantly amused by a whipper snappers bad use of words.The most of us work alone and the language or lack thereof that we have for our tools can not easily translate between loners... I helped a friend to design a working system for dishing large copper sculptures lots of new made up tools ..."Tommy" tools. Tommy Bar , Tommy Tool , Tommy hammer etc Tommy hammer had "Tommy" welded on it. Now "real" coppersmiths may well have had names for these types of tools and they may well have never seen a "tommy" ( A kind of belly mounted push bar for holding copper seams shut whilst you braise weld them) in which case I guess a Tommy could really be a Tommy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Alan - how do you refer to a spring swage - like the type used to make an acorn or a ball? Or do you consider these Dies? - no worries on my part but as you've said terminology is different - I just would like to know. Names of tools and types of tools can surely be confusing around the world. Just trying to know more terms for the different parts of the world so as to reply to others with correct terms VS. geography.I use exactly the terminology you mention. Spring swages; ball tools; acorn tools; spring tools.I would/do not call them dies, though they do meet the hollow criteria I referred to earlier. "Tools" seems to be the catch-all. The context however has a bearing, if I was asking my assistant to collect them from the rack I would just say "Bring the 50mm ball tools". If we were making a new pair I would refer to pushing the male into the "block" or aligning the top and bottom "blocks". I have been trying to imagine a scenario or sentence when I would describe them as dies and have not been able to. I use dies to cut a male thread on a bolt. I have a die that I use to freshen up my makers mark every few years. I have seen dies being used under a drop hammer and in a stamping press.How much this is just me and my experience, and how much it is UK wide or regional or industry specific I obviously cannot say.I have met and talked to a few industrial- and many Artist- blacksmiths from around the UK and indeed the world over during the last 40 years of earning my living as a blacksmith. Read a few books (looked at the pictures!) and attended quite a few conferences and events (three in the US, three in Czech (-oslavakia and then Republic) three in Stia, Italy, two in Aachen, Lindau, Fredrichshaven, three in France, one or two most years in UK. Certainly not every conversation with a fellow smith would have included an opportunity to notice whether they used the word dies for hammer pallets or spring tools, but most would have involved presses and power hammers I think! (sad little life really...)My knowledge of tool naming convention is therefore not absolute in any way...but I do like words. I regularly do crosswords (and complain to the compilers when they misuse technical terms…'etch' and 'engrave' are not synonyms!) And I have also recently been in extended discussion about the (mis)use of "bullet heads" to describe bullets on another forum. I have noticed that US blacksmiths often refer to the pallets under the power hammer as dies and often spell 'swage' 'swedge'...Sorry for the ramble, but you did ask!Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Ah yes "clapper dies", at least thats what I called them when picking some second hand ones from a notable smith.....Hi did get what I was on about but defiantly amused by a whipper snappers bad use of words.The most of us work alone and the language or lack thereof that we have for our tools can not easily translate between loners... I helped a friend to design a working system for dishing large copper sculptures lots of new made up tools ..."Tommy" tools. Tommy Bar , Tommy Tool , Tommy hammer etc Tommy hammer had "Tommy" welded on it. Now "real" coppersmiths may well have had names for these types of tools and they may well have never seen a "tommy" ( A kind of belly mounted push bar for holding copper seams shut whilst you braise weld them) in which case I guess a Tommy could really be a Tommy.The Black Country chain and nail makers referred to their foot hammers as "Oliver" (I presume after Cromwell) or "Tommy" hammers (origin no idea) so Tommy is already taken…From your description of the usage though, "Tummy" would have been a more appropriate name! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJS Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Do you guys distinguish between an open die hammer, or closed die hammer. Here I haven't heard the "dies";-) in a power hammer called anything else... I do remember noticing you guys called them pallets occasionally:-) Kinda like you guys call a rivet header, a snap. Part of the American experience I suppose, taking a little bit of information and the traditions from Europe and then making up the rest, because we had the freedom to do it... Lots of apprentices and journeymen smiths came over here and opened up their own shops, and they had to be creative, it introduced a divergent element to our development. My main professor in college was Vernard Foley who is a historian of science and technology. There was some interesting improvements to some tools due to the unique perspective of colonist here in the US. The American felling ax is an improvement over 'traditional' European felling axes, because the instant center of rotation is moved back into the center of the handle. It is easier to use, and the handle tends to vibrate less as I remember. The American scythe is just different, it tends to be much heavier and better suited to clearing brush, than moving grass or even cutting wheat. It is definitely not easier to use... The American tradition of over engineering comes from the early pioneers where they wanted a tool that would last forever, that and skilled labor was rarer, and raw materials were cheaper here than back in Europe. Its funny I have heard that most of the hinge barrels made here in the US were welded, and that it was more common for lighter duty hinges to just have butted barrels, again probably an issue of perceived durability. Even deeper in the rabbit hole;-) famous for going off on a tangent..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Closed dies I would always associate with drop hammers or stamping presses, not power hammers. It will be interesting to see what John (nonjic) or Phil (forgemaster) take is, they have been in the big boys' industry for some time.We will probably discover that every other British Artist Blacksmith has been calling pallets dies forever, and it is just me that still hangs on to the old industrial name.I did go around the forge this morning looking to see if I had anything I would call dies, sure enough I did find a hardy tool with a leaf form in it which I picked up in a job lot of stuff. I could bring myself to call it a leaf die!I also looked through my hammer brochures and User Guide for the Reiter hammer from the 1980s. Although they made no reference to "dies" one of the accompanying price lists did. I also have a twenty year later Kuhn brochure and that refers to dies all the way through it. However that may well have been translated from German into American rather than English, being the larger market, and indeed I may have picked it up in the 'states.The Alldays and Onions leaflets I posted in the powerhammer forum here refer to them as Pallets throughout.I don't have the Massey hammer leaflets to hand, which reminds me I was going to photograph and post them...to see what they call them. Will try and remember to look and post tonight.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Tis simple really just take the frillicud and impact it with the momentum transfer tool caddywumpus and Diminutive Robert is your Mater or Pater's brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 As long as you dont forget the quotation marks, TP. One wouldnt want the language police to arrest you and put you in stocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) The old Dupont literature (later Fairbanks hammer) calls them dies from the early 1900's. Litte Giant (Mayer/Murry/Moloch), Anyang, Sahinler, and Big Blu all refer to them as dies. I don't have a Nazel or Chambersburg literature to verify, but I've always seen it referred to as dies. Edited April 13, 2015 by Black Frog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 This is a bit like the scene: two workers in the factory,First worker "Well traditionally this would be referred to as..."Second worker " Which tradition do you mean the new one or the old one?" I have always referred to them as dies though this may have more to do with the 'Americanization ' of the technical literature rather than the trade terms as such. Particularly so during the last three decades . I'm of the opinion that during the 50's, 60's and early 70's the USA was growing (and publishing technical/industrial) at a phenomenal rate and the UK was unionizing (and declining industrially) at a rate that even scared Maggie . And so dear friends I think the story goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 As long as you dont forget the quotation marks, TP. One wouldnt want the language police to arrest you and put you in stocksCharles, would that be 'blue chip' or 'penny' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Forgive me for not keeping up with this . . . subject. But . . . Who was the British General that during the opening stages of WWI demanded artillery be returned to the Traditional smooth bore bronze cannon Wellington beat Napoleon with?Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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