"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[jake pogrebinsky]

Michael,you DO have some very decent results,i hear you,and take your advice very seriously,and don't see it as "out there" at all.
No,of course i've never allowed the work to develop in and of itself(otherwise,why would i invoke the Zen of it so often,and in vain?).
I'm too chickensh...t to go there,plain and simple.
I thought i'd forge for a while,get good at it,and one day,when my evil ego is asleep,i'd...make a run for it
And i don't mean to drag politics into any iron or art related discussion at all,sorry for whatever did sneak in,it,of course,is neither here nor there.
Beth,likewise,i hear you and take what you took the trouble to write very much to heart,thank you,in case i don't express my gratitude enough.Any amount of time,connectedness,and space that i could possibly telegraph you,is yours
I hear you on the cost and difficulty of surviving in England,especially in some nice,non-industrial part of it,it must be outrageously complex!I can't ever even imagine it!(Everyone remembers George Orwell as a political writer,meanwhile,some of his least-known,(and my favorite books)are "Keep the Aspidistra Flying",and,of course,"Down and out in Paris and London"
I guesss it must've been a mistake to read all these British novels,as afterwards,ALL i ever wanted was to be a Remittance Man!!!

Seriously,i really don't want to ever deal with money at all.Sell,buy,any of it,distressess and distracts me from forging and other necessary and valid things...

I've got to buzz off to work,the carpentry project is going swimmingly,should finish it out today.Tomorrow i'll be my own dog again,at the forge-fire,making more sense,hopefully!

Happy,creative forging to everyone!

[beth]

your dead right about the filthy lucre jake, and i mean that from the bottom of my heart. if you can do without getting too involved with it, then you are a lucky man and as you described, your own dog.. and thank you so much for the time /space /connect - it may take a while to arrive but i will look out for it..... so if your show thing goes ok with the public ( which i reckon it will - talk to em jake! ) then you can carry on as you are and be your own dog? i reckon you already got the zen in as much as it can be got.
have just been to see a man at a gallery (not a swanky town one actually but still, lucre is involved) and he advised me to make lots of smaller work too in bronze resin. he was a very nice man and i understand what he meant about affordable, but over my dead body am i making anything in plastic.... sorry, im just not. so he will take the bronze and we will see. i would rather make smaller work in something else, anything else, but the material has to have some integrity...i have some weeks now at home and not much (if any) time in the workshop with the metal. i can post some of what i do at home tho..? please keep posting your works guys and so i feel i keep my finger on the pulse :)

[jeremy k]

Jake - and others - I have enjoyed reading this thread, as there is much information within it. I feel It has evolved a bit off topic though (not a bad thing). When I look at forgings I tend to see the workmanship and processes involved as a whole and therefore make my meaningless judgments in my own mind. I am not so word suave' as some here, although when I look at forged ironwork, I myself tend to really appreciate (now this is my own opinion) the works of the European blacksmiths and such along with, most particularly the Ukranian style. Now that is, in my eyes a bit different than here in the states in such that the work can look very roughly forged and with minimal hammerwork in some - and look very inticate and intreging. Am I getting my words across??? I don't know, but I think this is part of the original type of subject matter this post started with as far as fully forged objects. Discussing the "forging / and or looks" of an item is what appeals to me. The reason I say this is that most work I enjoy looking at - there is no original mill sized stock apparent. Take a round bar to make square and square bar and make round type of thing. So.....let my drivel of words give me a beating or run with it with more talk of the forging Styles / Looks. - Cheer's - JK

[Dodge]

Jake,

I was going to make comment on the Louis Carrol reference but Beth beat me to it . I haven't heard that poem for years. (My mother used to read it to us) I confess that I had to google it in order to enjoy it in its entirety once again!
I haven't read every word of this post but I did see it when it was only one page. Wow! Is this what's known as "viral"? While I don't always agree with your philosophies I think you are, in deed, an artist; Not just in "the craft", but with words as well. Keep 'em coming!!

Scott

[jake pogrebinsky]

Wonderful,friends,Beth,Jeremy,Scott,everyone,we just may be onto something here,please lets continue the discussion,the annoying rabbit-trails nonwithstanding!

VERY briefly about filthy lucre.It would be hard to explain in detail,but i live in an absolutely weirdest place economy-wise(white man's e.,i mean here,subsistence aside).I'd not be surprised if the cost of living in Galena did not exceed that of London-town,seriously.N.Y.Times wrote an article a while back claiming that Galena,Alaska,has THE highest food prices in the USA(?!).
Gasoline,right now,is $7 a gallon(one can't any longer use a boat to go,say,berry-picking;gas will cost more than the canned/frozen/whatever berries imported from wherever,in the store.Fur prices,though not at all bad the last couple of years,do not pay for snowmachine gas ).

I've just done a simple carpentry job,some stairs,a deck,easy and conventional.My friend paid me $46 an hour.(He's an old union operator,and knows what it takes to survive here).If it sounds exhorbitant(as it does to me,though i realise why,et c),i'll tell you-HERE,it's chum-change.You'd have to be making that wage working full time to just stay afloat.It saves my sorry a.. right now because it(almost)covers the fee for that museum gig and the plane ticket to town to get there.I'll continue to use the phone book pages to roll up butts that i pick up off the street.

There's simply NO hope to survive financially forging.None.That's why i can so smugly say "to hell with it".Not because i've done something,or found some way,i'm simply out of the running.That's that,now,to the important stuff.

Beth,i'd like to address the plastic issue here in a short while,i'm brain-dead right now,after a day at construction,and won't do that issue justice.

Jeremy,likewise:What you bring up is VITALLY important,that's exactly the issues that i was hoping to discuss,the entire reason for this thread.

I'd like to throw just one thing out there,briefly.Sam Yellin,among other deceptively simple-sounding things that he said,put it this way(in my re-telling):
"The size,the scope,the complexity,the budget,et c.,of a given job,do not matter AT ALL.What matters is the QUALITY.And IT can be present in the smallest,simplest forging imaginable."

Something to that effect.What it means to me(i think),is that IF one has the talent,the taste,the...whatever it takes to produce such work,then we'll all,literally,live happily ever after.Because WE,as artists,will be happy to've produced something good,and that whole compensation issue resolves itself-the labor becomes commesurate with the compensation....Is that absolutely inane?(Maybe i shouldn't have even tried to write now at all,it's just that it's far from a new thought,and didn't require thinking on my part now,just writing it down...).

[jeremy k]

Now - just to clarify..... I do not mean that there is no good ironwork in the states!!! - There is and lots of it, I just seem to be drawn to the Ukrainian stuff. Maybe thats because of the web site I had found a long time ago had links to the festivals over there - where they have a large object / stage of sorts, that everyone forges something to put "onto" it, so that the final outcome is a wonderfully forged sculpture. The forgings that have been done for some of these I have seen is beyond description - wow - talk about some imaginations. Now - my question would firstly be.... do these imaginations / forgings derive from the vast and many years of blacksmithing gererations that has always been a part of that area? Or is this something reletively new in the last 20 yrs persay of the blacksmithing revival? - I would have to say more towards the latter but including the previous. The reason I say that is that the final forgings are of an artistic value and show piece vs. a usable practical item (not saying that there is none of these). When I tell people, and have been told myself, ... that blacksmithing is limited to your skill and imagination, That statement is "Spot On". To see an out of the ordinary forging is the "treat" for me. Is there a reason to forge a complicated, artistic, sculpture for "looks" only? - Yes there is! - to me it's personal satisfaction / tourture - view it as you may. same as the "why climb a mountain" .... cause it's there deal. Along with the great amounts of learning by stepping into the unknown/unskilled arena, what a great way to have those problems/learning curves be forever "pounded" in your head. ( wow I got a pun outta that LOL). The bonus for this would be a decorative and Usable item.
There is the talk of the old skilled masters never leaving the hammer marks to show, some times I feel that is golden, and sometimes I feel the texture/and or hammer marks help to accent the item and the way " I " want it to look. (to me, the no hammer marks really makes it look like machine made or factory made).Just like a painter - he does what he wants - if noone else "sees" what he's triing to convey - it's not an issue because it's the way "He/She" intended it to be/look. This I feel is very much the way forgings now days actually is. Not everyone likes every particaular item - even though it's forged, due to their own likes. The key is to look further into the item than the outter looks and "see/know" how it was forged and how it got from a standard stock size and reshaped to what it is. This in itself can be a mind bender that sometimes takes a bit of thinking. By this I mean not cut and welded as per electric welding - but a sort of constant volume forging ( same volume but changing the shape) which can include some math that one does not think of when first starting blacksmithing. When I got more into it, I found the math deal a bit more neccessary due to the trial and error method can be time consuming. Well enough rambling for now - hope this feeds and expands this thread a bit.

[beth]

yes jk - i agree with you i think that the more sculptural imaginative stuff coming out of europe and everywhere else is more to do with relatively new attitudes to 'artist blacksmithing' of the past few decades, a different attitude to what is a valid use almost of the material - and also modern cultural references.. i too like to see the volume forging and to work out how it was possible,(some say maths the highest form of art dont they`??) also i think there is something extra with this realy manipulated stuff, like an x factor where there is a mystique added to the peice and the final look. its gone through a totally diferent process with a different journey and reason than something electric welded together in standard stock.
in reference to some of the things youve made and shown on here - nobody but you could/would have made them like that, and your skill and imagination are written all over it - even those little pieces of fruit and that mad stuff - all extremely beautiful and high quality and made with not just the hourly rate in mind. you may say your not so good with words (i disagree! ) but i would def say you are a metal artist. would you agree?
also talking of painters, often we have no idea how many layers and changes have gone before in terms of colors textures that we may not see on the final painting, but the fact that they are there adds to the finished look, gives it history and depth, as does volume changing the metal and hammer marks. its not nec for member of the public to know how this was done to see the differnece and appreciate the feel of the piece. (although sometimes they obviously wont!)
jake im very surprise at your fuel price - we always assume the yanks get much cheaper fuel than us - i reckon ours is about £6 a gallon, which aint much more.... it sounds as if you'd be wise to consider somewhere else if you want to remain forging...? is that what youre saying? it will be crucial how your show goes i guess? that yellin quote is great - quality is of huge importance - massive - my skills are no where near up to the quality i require to be hapy with them ( not at the forge anyway) which is partly why im doing a bit of sculpture in soft materials to encourage myself, it is easier and my natural eye which isnt bad does not have to struggle so much to reveal itself. the forgework i consider to be a long term plan for my own skill improvement/development/enjoyment, not something that improves very rapidly with the time i can give it at this stage in my life.. as for money i turn my hand to anything in the artistic line ( although happy to mend things too) always jobs where you can deliver quality are where the contentment in your work are.

ps regarding the drifting viral thread - i am loving its organic thought provoking nature - am away now for a few days camping, i will certainly check in when i get back to see what we're on dont let me down guys!!!!!!

[alchymist]

It seems to me that the more technically talented people are the ones supporting this country, yet the bulk of the financial renumeration goes to the administrative types. Where it will get interesting is if TSHTF and all the mig welders have no power, there is no propane or NG, or even artificial lighting. Thats when the old technologies become important, and those who know them will survive. Just a random thought from the shop floor.

[ThomasPowers]

Having spent some time in Europe I have noticed that while you get a lot of stuff being made to replicate the old stuff already there you also get sort of a rebellion against all the "old" and for new and interesting styles; however made by people with a sound base in "old" techniques.

So someone might live in a 300 year old apartment building yet decorate their apartment in cutting edge modern---or look at the Bauhaus style.

Here in the USA without the centuries of "baggage" we often admire the old styles; and sadly we often don't have the old skills base---on the other hand we're more likely to innovate in style and technique as we come from a frontier "make do" culture.

Note that Yellin's gothic revival stuff was often forged by smiths fresh off the boat from Europe.

[jeremy k]

One point of forging that I try to keep in mind is that every hammer blow is moving metal - even in the slightest amount, typically it is lengthening the piece. This is when one really needs to understands the constant volume issue (provided you started with the volume you will end up with). With this in mind - the old saying "I one timed it to many" can be crutial to your piece. This is not relevant to some abstract forgings, although it can sure help when you need a piece to fit between a couple others at a certain distance/shape/size. Of course this can be done by winging it - and yes, there are times when those things work out and look great as it evolves. Years of forging will help with guesstiments of mat'ls needed for that special shape. All this intrigues me, even though I really didn't like math in school.
One topic of discussion could be - (taking some of the above into account) - do you people make sketches and dimensions of a free from forging? or do you use your mental picture as your guide and forge away and see how the metal wants to develope into the mental picture to get to your outcome? I myself use the mental picture mostly although many times I really wished I would have sketched and been able to do the Blueprint type layouts first. Maybe that's some of my fly by the seat of my holy pants deal. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, I will admit that! I am interested in how others thought processes are going into a non-commission forging (say for yourself type of deal). I feel that I don't have to do all the particular paperwork planning and such due to the issue that it is "MY Forging Time", that means very relaxed time. - Talk to us - those with black boogers LOL

[jake pogrebinsky]

Jeremy,i can really relate to most things that you're saying.I,too,am flying on instruments too often,and afterwards wish that i'd have formulated a plan,sketched,measured,stopped to think,et c.
I think that generally what you're describing is "impulsiveness",and everyone,i suppose,has that to whatever degree.
Like everything else in the universe,impulsiveness extends to both poles:On the positive one,i suppose it leads to following where the material itself leads,as per Danger's suggestion.On the other,that i'm personally more familiar with,it leads to making spur of the moment decisions that could have been thought-out better,on sober reflection.Impatience,i suppose is what borders impulse on that side,and the Zen of forging on the other.
So,it probably is worth the gamble.Especially as you've specified the non-commission/non-critical nature of the situation.
And even if one looses by it,still,chess-like,losses in forging are often very educational,the pain of disappointment helping the lesson to sink in,branding it upon our tortured brain.
So,i'm all for it,it's in my nature to begin with.But i do know people that not only sketch,and diagram,but make a most detailed scale drawing.One friend in Tula,Russia,on top of all that sketches a pen and ink drawing,treating the planned object as a still-life,then goes over it with watercolors.In the end he has a VERY serious idea of the impression that the future object will project.
There can be Zen in the extreme deliberation as well,it seems,and stands to reason,too.

And,speaking of forging in different countries.Somehow,i find it less than productive to compare it in General terms.I know exactly what you mean,Jeremy,i also keep track of collegues in Ukraine and Russia,but have a hard time drawing,again,GENERAL paralells or conclusions.
As far as the legacy of smiths gone before,well,like Thomas points out,we ALL are descended from those forging styles,all have been exposed to the marvelous old work,and are very much on equal footing with our european brethren of the Black Booger.
In details,however,i too have some very great admiration for the creativity of certain individuals there(and would like to post some links to their work,sometime.Jeremy,can you tell us about any particular smiths there that you like?Do you have any pointers as to where their work can be viewed?).

I've just finished an 8-hour stint at the anvil,and feel my brain being limited by tiredness.I'll take a few here,start my charcoaling process,and will try to check in later(there are so many cool things to read here already,and i'd love to reply to some,if i can,too.)

In any case,this is what i've done today(impulsiveness all the way,and not necessarily of a very constructive kind).
Design from D.Plummer's book,material-mixed,mild,WI,snowmachine coil-spring...As usual,crap off the floor.
I cut the horiz.part of the teeth with a hack-saw,then hot-cut to the base of that cut.Worked out great-didn't even clean up with a file or anything.
The sill thing actually works GREAT,i'm very surprised.

[bigfootnampa]

That is the nicest trammel hook that I have ever seen!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks,Clay,you know,actually it was very easy(one of those "lots of visual bang for your buck" projects).I'd recommend it to anyone,as there was no complicated tricks that came up.I've a suspicion that this design,like a river rock,was polished by countless generations of craftsmen...

Something that i had in mind lately but was too tired to bring up:In a beginning of this thread there was a slight hitch,of sorts,with Mark.He was offended by how intemperately and categorically i've stated my own standards for "good"(?) ironwork,and felt that i've slighted those that are less experienced...
It saddens me,as it couldn't be further from my thoughts to look down in any way,upon anyone's efforts.Every time that i come across a question that i may know anything helpful about,i try to do my best to share what info i've scraped up over the years.(In many cases i'm stumped,and in many more my advice is actually flawed,as i'm largely self-taught,and always was slow to learn myself).
Anyway,i'd just hate to have anyone think that in this thread there'll be any self-satisfied strutting of some supposed prowess or anything the like.
With that in mind i've taken quite a few process photos,and if anyone is ever interested in the nuts and bolts of how i've achieved whatever shape,i'd most gladly rattle on about it,and may even be able to illustrate with some photos...

[Old N Rusty]

Please do post pics of the process, I, for one, am very interested in seeing the HOW, This is a great thread, keep it going folks!

[HWHII]

I have always been a tool and machinery type of guy. I love tools and eguipment. When I first started to learn blacksmithing, after finding a anvil was to make a power hammer and I started to use it right away.
After seeing your work Jake, done with the basics, some how I feel I have cheated myself out of some basic skills that you learn at the anvil done by hand, which I must admit to be lacking of that skill. It would be very hard for me to go back to the basics and work a piece of iron with all that equipment staring at me. I am not sure I could even work that many hours at the anvil the way my hands and elbows are working now a days.

As drawnings go I do not schetch well, but am blessed with a 3D brain. I can see in my mind what I want to create and do well making it. It is the ideas that need to be placed there by someone else. I have never been very creative with my own ideas. I have a associate that will spend hours schetching and planning a job, yet he does not charge for it. Then the work often does not even look like the schetch he has spent all the time on. The comment Danger made about working the steel and letting it tell you what it wants to be is a gift in it's self. When I try it all I see and hear is the old TV test pattern and a steady tone.

[Marksnagel]

Jake,
That trammel hook is well, off the hook! That is really cool! I hope to be able to make one close to it. Thanks for posting the pic.

Mark <><

[jake pogrebinsky]

Harold,i can very easily relate,sir,to an inability to just forge away,drawn by some inner vision...You can see how most of what i do is reproduction of old work.And much of that is the work that was far from spontaneously forged in it's day,but was bound both by the function,the tradition,and the constrains of the economy of the times(done fast,with least thrills).

I guess that the one thing that i'm guided by is simply noticing what elements i like in forged work(anyone's that i can find),and forcing my worthless brain to pursue it further than it'd normally tend to do.really try to stare at it,and try to understand why is it that i find that particular part appealing.

That's how i came to realise that the constant change of volume(taper,say),is way better looking than the parallel lines,that rarely look good in a forging.

Also that i like the many other kinds of the ways that people forge a transition(the whole of a forging is really a continued transition of changing mass,that's why stock size/shape/even texture(mill scale)are so jarring-it's an interruption).As you examine some work you start noticing,this is what that smith done here-reduced that dia.over the anvil's edge before bending,so THAT's why it looks like it does...

Often,i've forged something small/easy just to try that out,to see how well i can do it,and how it will look(and many a time quit in disgust-was either wrong about the way it was done,or utterly lacked the skill to execute that particular move).

So that brings me to basically the reverse-engineering,very educational pursuit,i find.How was that particular transition achieved?Even in an unsuccessful attemptone can learn a lot.

Old-and-Rusty(Russel,is that right?)asked to post some process stuff.I happened to photograph my attempt to re-create that rooster-looking critter from that old trammel out of D.P.'s book,will post a few below.(Russel,if you can be more specific about what'd interest you more...).
But,Harold,the machinery,and being good with it, is it's own fantastic gift(i'm too worthless to even MAINTAIN my little L.G,watch it go down on me right when i need it most),incredible that you can actually build a hammer...Hand work teaches one a lot,but you do need power tools to simply not kill yourself with the sheer amount of labor that it all involves.
So,i'd say that the hand-hammer is best for exploration,to understend why,and how,and the power-hammer for actual production.To speed things along,so that we can at least not forget where was it that we're going with that piece... :blink:

[jake pogrebinsky]

Mark,wonderful,very happy to've done anything at all to encourage you.It is all very simple,just a succession of very simple individual moves.And the design is very flexible as well.Let us all know if you run into any trouble,everyone here,i'm more than sure, would be happy to help you figure it out.

Great day's forging to you,and everyone.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Intuitive forging, gift or curse, not sure, may not be able to hold a thought long enough to actually produce something worth wile. Not sure why I'm so interested in the idea but feel more play than work helps develop creativity. Jake the trammel looks as it should, another great piece, nothing forced on that piece of iron!

[jeremy k]

Jake - this is the site I've seen many pictures that are wonderfull.

http://spilkakovaliv.org/

Now at one time I was able to find my way around the site before they upgraded to the current site format (believe me I had many hours of hunting and writing things down to try to navigate that site back then), By that I mean do not read that language but by pecking around I found the gallery and sorted though the many files of pictures they had. I used to know by recognition the words to get to the gallery but have since lost them amongst the rocks and cobwebs upstairs. I did save over 500 pictures a few yrs back from that site for reference. I do not know how to englishize websites for my reading, but that's the site anyway, and names of smiths from there.....not a clue Most of the files were from the festivals they have. If you can find your way through the site....enjoy - I did :D

[Bob S]

Jeremy,

If you click on the British flag (third from the left in the upper left corner) the site will appear in English.

http://www.spilkakov...org/information

Bob

ps. only seems to work for the first page.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks,Jeremy,seems like an interesting site.Among the "buttons" at the top there's one named "Галерея",that's Gallery(and that's the extent of my Ukranian,about,for Russian is a kind of a bastard-cousin to the other Slavic languages,and serbs,ukranians,poles,et c.,can all understand each other,but i'm out of the loop).But there's some English in the photo captions,all that i've seen just refer to a particular festival location.
Haven't had much time to look there yet,as i forgot that today was my day for shopping for materials.

A very good friend provided the four-wheelers and a couple of burly grandsons,and off we went into the taiga north of town,where the military in the 40-ies/50-ies used to play with ordnance,and other such unsafe but fun things.

We were following up on the intillegence report that purported a discovery of an old bob-sled,used by the military to skid whatever it was that needed skidding...

It wasn't all that far where we ran our prey to ground,and butchered it using a cordless sawzall and a ditto porta-band,and hauled the loot back home.

Nice haul,300-400 lbs of WI and some assorted shear steel type junk.Bunch of WI chain for that smaller round stock that i so sorely lacked.One neat pelikan hook,all nastily forge-welded,and a cool heart-shaped spreader for chain.Some of the bolts have an interesting structure inside.And some big stuff for drifts,i'm very glad of, too,as have some more axe design ideas.
I'm set with material for a good while now...

[HWHII]

Nice hall Jake! You have opened my eyes to items I would have normally over looked. Not anymore.

[ThomasPowers]

I love finding metal! Out here I once found the rotting remains of an old boxcar out in the desert and got about 100' of 5/8" wrought iron rod that was used as bracing for it. Mainly involved pulling the rods out of the pile of rotten wood and watching out for rattlesnakes.

Just be careful of those great white birches out there---french kissing them is definitely not suggested!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Harold,that's great,but i'm sure that i don't need to state(i will,though:)),again,about the treacherous nature of all the antiquities...Between the slag inclusions,chemistry varying inch by inch,and the micro-damage from past service(not even mentioning macro-,),it'll all break your heart,at times,when the piece falls apart on you during the very last stage of working it!

Thomas,right on!But,what do you have against the inter-special sex?And at our,this all-permissive age that we live in?The birch was a powerful symbol in the Old Country,maybe hugging it,and kissing it,et c.,is just the thing!