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I Forge Iron

"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."


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Well...You can look at it this way:With something THAT cool-looking,does it really matter?!
Now,imagine more than two ganged up!Three,four...Many,in a circular pattern!!!
An Asher-pattern of tongs grasping each-other! :blink:


Yes.Incredibly,they do work.At least,for holding the bit to the plowshare.(Or,two plowshares being forge-welded into a sword... :P )

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that is incredible :D what a cool cool idea - looks kind of medical in an alarming way...! like you said - would be groovy in and of itself whether it functioned at all or not... ( this is partly why my home is full of objet's of not much use..) but i feel i dont need to master the use of the black magic multi- weld aiding tongs yet - is all i can do to remain patient with anything other than the One pair that i take a shine to... john b has some lovely pointy scrolly type tongs/pliers that he has at his forge which i really liked actually , just find the long handles very cumbersome and disconnecting - dont mind at all something with a shorter handle, but best of all when you can hold the work! just attempted as promised in another thread (which ive since lost track of) to take photos of work to disscus s but the piece nearby my home which i chose is so covered in flowers and foliage that you can barely see the work... i will try for something else.... i think more disscussing actual work is valuable for me and particularly the visual aspects of it...jake tell me how long you have been doing this work? i am a total part timer/ mother /fingers in many pies person, but you obviously spend many hours a day at the forge. i envy you that!

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ok so here is a design ( one of three i sent to customer - might try t put them all on) for a 'religious' gate panel for a school, its a church of england school and she wanted some religious imagery but i didnt want anything naf or anything that would date. the school is 150 years old this year and the village much much older. it was going to be totally metal gate but now someone else is making the wooden surround and i am making a panel for within that. what do you think - its just a starting point really - but the customer seems hapy with anything which is a bit tricky! want to try and have it all touched by human hand/hammer like we been on about - the old gate was a church shape all worked cold and straight...... not very nice....

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Yea,Beth,we should definitely stick to discussing work(couldn't find what you mention having posted,where's it at?).

I've been at the craft a little more than a decade,Beth,and you wouldn't envy my time at the forge if you only knew how squalid and miserable the rest of my existence becomes as a result.
But,very roughly,what i am can be described as a "river-rat".Fishing,logging,working on all the endless crap that serves as the tools for all these activities,about covers my sorry attempts to survive here.So,the forging,especially when i stay at the anvil for weeks or months at a time,jeopardises my existence severely stressing all systems to the point of dysfunction(i'm missing the summer run of chum salmon right now,which is ok,since i've only got two dogs left out of my old team,else,i'd be cutting dog-fish to dry.The driftwood logs that i've tied up this spring are still in the river,getting waterlogged,washing away in every storm,et c.).
Computer,camera,all the "cargo" is donated equipment,my rent and electricity are obtained in trade with a friend for whom i sell gas during the moose-hunting season,to the Great White Hunters.And it is because of electricity that i can go a few weeks forging-or,rather,the cryogenics(as in a freezer,which,morgue-like,is full of dead critters,so that i don't have to hunt/fish right now,for daily ration).In all ways i owe my existence to the kindness of the local indian tribe,an outcast,a stray madman.
But,enough of tales of Woe and Despair,that's what i like about our here imaginary world-it's bright and hopefull,with well-adjusted people like yourself maintaining a sane attitude! :)

Yesterday i actually had a day-off,which i used to process some stock.Namely,it was an old barrel-dolly,or cart,scavanged at an abandoned village site way up river.It is "wrought",or some type of low C steel,and i need to poke and to prod it some,to learn about it.
One of the important questions for me is the degree of it's plasticity,but also how coarse the layering of slag in it is,and wether it's possibly hot-(P)-short,or cold-,(S)-short.
So far,i like the stuff a lot.It's soft to forge,no shortness as of yet occured,and i even managed to split and to refine a crotch in it-a very vital detail,as i need to think about forging both an axe and an adze,of a certain type,both requiring this operation.My main stash of WI,a navy contract chain,is too coarse-grained to allow for either a crotch,or a split&drifted eye formed in it.

And now i finally(sorta)come to a point,since we've been discussing welds.
Beth,you say that you're having a tough time blending your weld in(i do too,generally).
Back a ways in this thread,Southshoresmith said that a weld MUST be well-blended.(As per the classical,ornamental forging mores).I'm sure that he's right.
However,in SOME instances,the welds were not blended in to invisibility.In industry,if a weld was thought to be sufficiently functional,it was often left fairly obvious.

Since here we're among other things discussing the impression that the forging technique has on the look of an ornamental iron,i'd pose a theory that an obvious forge-weld can be used as an ornamental embellishment,in some appropriate instances.

Here're some old welds from the stuff that i ruthlessly cut-up for material yesterday.
Photos 2002 and 2004 are the bottom and the top of the same one,fairly rarely seen weld.Interesting how the material was pinched down to back it structurally on the opposite side of a lap.

As usual,just random,disjointed thoughts... :)

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Beth,here's what i'd say right off:

The design itself is not optional,it's something that you and the client work up,so it's axiomatic.

The way that the space in a panel is filled looks good,very competent,and it's something that you have well in hand,obviously.

What the sketches do not reflect is the relative GAUGE of member stock.That is something that i see as important:Given the sinous,organic S-curves,what i'd see as appropriate would be a visible difference in thickness,width,from large on the bottom/base,to diminishing toward the leaves.Accent-edly so,because then the large,wide leaf itself would again provide the drama of changing volume.

That,the variation of mass,would i think make that design very sweet.Wether if it was built using the parallel lines of rolled stock would make it look banal,run-of-the-mill,if you'll excuse my sloppy way of expressing things.

That's just the general impression,too.In part come by because i like them big/wide/fat leaves.

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ah yeah jake i know it is easy for me from the comfort and relative ease of my life in nice village in uk to romantisise your lifestyle, i guess its just that longing for mre that is real if you know what i mean. there is a middle ground maybe where we have some home comforts and security re the finances, and actually the nec of getting hands dirty and having intimate knowledge of the materials we need to live. the fact that you are dealing not only with the iron on a daily basis but catching your food and handling your fuel and being in the weather and noticing sesons and all that stuff that i think makes for a better existance. i am hearing that life can be pretty grim up your way tho - and no disrespect intended to the lifestyle. its the stuff i dream in tho - and i cant help that! im glad that you find bright shiney hope in the surreal conversation on here! as do i!

thanks fo rth e close ups of the weld s and yes i agree that theyneed not be totaly smooth and infact i like the slightly lapping look of most of those, i wouldnt be troubled by that. but they do need to stay together :) i would not also like to think of water getting into gaps too much, but a bit of weld showing is nice on a fire weld. dont really say the same for the mig welds...

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very well put as usual and you are of course right - the sketch does not show guage , and idealy i would like a good contrast in width from the bottome of the 'stems' to below the leaf. i like big fatty leaves too, altho im not the most consistent leaf maker and oddly find it eassier on the p hammer which i know is not good enough :) and no we dont want parallel lines at all... you put it al so well. if the work could look Sweet then i think thats a very good thing - i like metal work that i would describe as sweet. be sweet not sour ...:) what do you think would be the most sweet way to attatch the panel to the wood? it will be on a flattened border to fit the (as yet undefined size)wood....

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Tough question about attachement,as it brings on the width AND the texture of the wood(just like you said :) ).

One of the ways,if we follow the logic of contrasting volumes,would be the round,"penny scroll"-ish mounting endings on stock...To echo the stem/leaf transition?
Maybe?

One of the tough things about the organics in general is the INTERFHASE of the design with the surrounding rectilinear/geometric stuff.The mounting is where it happens.It's important that it makes almost it's own point,visually.

Also depends on wether it'll be face mounted,or inset into the depth of timbers(underscoring THEIR gauge/depth/massiveness).

I've a guy here now with a boat propeller that he needs straightened,i'll be back in the evening-let's keep on this!!!

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jake dont worry about hurrying to reply i talk very very fast! :) i know your on a different time zone and have work to do. you give me a lot to think about - your e so right that the metal work should define itself by how it touches the surrounding, and that it makes its own point. here is your experience compared to mine - i can think of lots of pretty things and have since a little girl, but its taking proper time to work out the type of details your talking about.
i love the idea of an organic shape touching the wood, rather than the very awkward idea i had of the wooden frame defining how the end of the metal work should look. the metal has equal rights on the finished design! this is typical of my subserviant attutude to others and their ideas,( the man that is making the wood bit) i should be more bold!i was going to set it into the depth as you say, not onto one side or the front .. i like the penny scroll idea, it does not need to be framed in metal- it is framed in wood after all. i like the first design the best, and she seems very happy to go along with it. i would like the upper leaves to come out onto the wood either side so at least one leaf can be seen by the children from the otherside of the gate but i have to think about access and getting it into the finished ;hole' in the wood. i am hopeiong (probably without real basis) that the wooden part will have an organic handmade look.............

i once saw a school gate which was FANTASTIC i loved it so much a friend of mine an old very good artist/blacksmith/whatever made it of the tree of life, i dont have a pictyure of it but it was truly wonderful, it was very heavy guage for the size of gate and very bulbous and tactile, and each part of the tree dished outwards towards the street. the inside of each dished area of tree was painted a different bright color and they were just right for little hands to press into and look at and prod push thier faces into etc. i will try and go and get a picture on it now i have a camera!!

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good luck with the mashed prop - i will await your wisdom whenever it arrives jake! :)


Hi Beth, regards your school gate. two points, not knowing material sizes you are proposing,

Does the 100mm sphere rule apply?

In the two 'open' designs, are the features going to provide potential snagging areas for youngsters accoutrements, or be capable of being distorted by the more adventurous (shall we say)

With regards to fixings, you could make the design to fit and be viewed from both sides and secure it with rosette or leaf shaped nuts/bolts/studs or some other suitable profile(s).

With regard to seeing the ends of the scarfs on forge welds, that is perfectly acceptable, in fact you may do more damage and overcook the joint by trying to get the ends in.
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Beth,i don't know if you need to worry about "the rights" of metal,iron,least of all:Given half a chance it'll dominate any other material,especially the more bland ones,like wood and stone.One curlique-and the observer's eye is focused on iron,at the expense of all else.You'll have no problem asserting you iron's proper place compared to wood!

I like everything that Mr.B brings up.Harware should,if possible,be a part of design.Would be tough to get very far without some definite data on the woodwork.Can you twist the guy's arm to give you the details?Threaten him with grillwork so busy that the wood will become invisible altogether :P

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Well,the silly thing's hanging in there,will try to tack on a few photos of what i've wasted my day on.

(Before you tell me that it's an odd-ball shape,take a look at this database here:http://www.miljolare.no/data/ut/album/?al_id=2085)

That new batch of WI,albeit better than anything that i've used in a while,is still an absolute bear to deal with...

Oh,sh...,the barge's pulling up,gotto go move some boats out of it's way...

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thanks john - ye s i certainly do need to consider the little hands and heads - and also any Playful Distortion of the metal that might go on - it will all be heavy enough to be too dificult to bend for the little hands! its only a very small primary school, so these are not naughty teenagers....:) the reason i dont have the measurements for the wood is becasue its a Very disorganised bunch im dealing with - the builders on site recently were nearly tearing their hair out.... this does not bode well i realise but she wants me to do it so i will do my best. i have to wait till the gate is made in wood before i properly finalise what i will want to make. and there is some question about who is going to make it. from what little experience i have, i want that part finished before i get on with my bit. becasue shapes and sizes change! i quite like the idea of your threats though jakeand i might employ that approach.... :) - ! i like the idea of shaped nuts/studs through the leaves. that would look good....

jake are you right by the river there? (the barge) just saw a picture in the paper which caught my eye , a bear in the Mcneil river falls alaska (anywahere near you??) he is a great big bear sat in the river fallen asleep with a fish in his arms! his head has just lolled down with tiredness from fishing and general life presumeabley...

jake why is the wi a bear to deal with? i will check out your link - cant do it at the same time as reading the posts!

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Beth,so,that means that you need to try to make a design and leave the certain parameters optional?That's not that hard,if one can quantify the possible options.

McNeil River is actually quite a ways from here,let's see,two divides,i believe,some hundreds of miles even as a crow flies!It is a world-famous brown bear observation point(they're too busy eating fish to eat the observer).

Yep,i'm some tens of feet from the River,depending on the water level.Let me see,i thought i had a photo of a barge tied up here.Their wheelhouse is really close,and level with my windows(so that i can't pretend that i'm not home,and avoid going down the bank to help them scatter all the small boats in the way of their landing).

This type of axe is for super exact,controlled hewing motions(some of the old ones in that database were rehandled for general use,not the greatest idea).In effect it's a chisel only handled differently.Scandinavians also carve some incredibly compleh notches with it,in beams(loft),or logs.So the handle is very close,for control.

The WI is,in effect,"damascus" of sorts.A non-homogenous material,interspersed with strands of slag.Wood-like,in that the slag is weaker than the iron,so as to form a definite,longitudinal strands.It unravels under the hammer,and does a number of other funky things.The name WI is strictly approx.,it's just a whatever,pre-bessemer mild steel of the past,thus,the unpredictability.
These same slag inclusions,being Si,make it self-fluxing,like flux-core wire,in effect,and it welds like a dream...Also it's extremely soft,being generally very low C,and pliable,and it's texture is neat.

NONE of which make it reasonable to use.The stuff is utterly unpredictable,liable to fail any moment(like break right across the supposed "grain").I'm a fool to mess with it.
Still have to weld in the steel bit for the edge,and may well loose the whole mess in the last stages.

So,the WI is cool,but unpredictable,i guess that's my point :) .

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jake - yes i can see the axe in use not you say it is a differently used chisel. nice to be in that work.... i love the pictures wow big expense of water ! everything is so SMALL here - wiulod make you lot laugh!! here i will atatch for your interest in return for your shots a picture out of the cathedral near by in the city near ish to me, there was a cast sculpture exhibitipon there with a lot of the biggest brit names in sculpture of last few decades was wonderful in the seting - in fact the setting took my breath away viewed in a different light and as an adult ( have not been in there since a child) look how beautiful the cloisters are...
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i have to go out now but i want to talk to you more about the wi and its foibles - it must really bring your instinct as a blacksmith and disregard for Method to the fore. ...

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That is insanely impressive,Beth,i'm speechless...

I think that whoever designed it was a blacksmith:Look at all the quatrefoils and the like in the pattern.Unto even the preserving the relative mass of what can be forged out of each faggot-weld of junctures.

The entire idea,the flow of many of the main lines is ALL iron,iron plasticity...

xxxx,i love gothic everything...There's so much to learn from it,just a gut instinct of an ignorant,(but passionate)smith. You're so lucky to live around buildings and everything else of this sort,it's simply incredible!

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