Steve Sells

Is that your version of a "sword hammer" woody ? careful that's copyright by Sam... I can't see how a 10# chunk of grader blade welded to a handle is a sword, but I got my pop corn, and waiting for the movie.:cool:

the Science says you are incorrect. A steel sword cannot get harder than a diamond, no where close. But I would love to see your Video, let us know when you finish editing it. :rolleyes:

from Knife Chat Jan 16, 2009 [m_brothers] blade warping -> straightening? [markb] Will the edge burn in an oven electric controlled temp? [Finnr] I leave the edges about the thickness of a dime when hardening [brucegodlesky] warping?? normalize normalize normalize [steve sells] most the time by leaving a little extra thick at edge we can avoid burning [steve sells] thin sections will heat faster than thick [steve sells] they also loose heat faster and can cause a failure in the hardening precoss from that too [m_brothers] same here art, about a dime, i didnt call it a dime, i called it about 1/16" [brucegodlesky] Keep the blade moving back and forth in the forge [steve sells] most warping for beginners is from using the hot blade to move the coal, or hitting lumps with a rake while the blade is hot in fire. [steve sells] tell beginners all the time watch the blade when its hot it will move as ya hit it may not think about it while its covered by the coals when you hot the coals on top it, then it bangs the steel underneath too [m_brothers] i mean after quench [Finnr] have to have even heating [steve sells] or shaking it too hard and fast inthe quench and hitting the side too don't worry about edge quenching at first, dip it tip first into the oil and move gently even heat, normalizing before the heat treat, after the grinding [m_brothers] i mean i quench vertically, but I have a little bit of warping along edge, what can i do to even it out? [brucegodlesky] sounds like uneven edge [steve sells] when HT with 1095 many use 1500 - 1550F for a harden temperature. We have to get that temp to below 900F in less than 0.8 seconds to make it harden, BUT it doesn't actually get stiff until its about 500 F or lower. So between thats 900 F and 500 F temps we can still straighten a little with out messing up the blade or its heat treating process we started [brucegodlesky] long as you're wearing glove s:-) [steve sells] yes bruce, but I can't imagine anyone hardening in oil with out gloves, more than once anyway [Finnr] flash ain't fun! [brucegodlesky] sometimes I forget [m_brothers] i've done it without gloves, just used likes 3ft tongs, lol [brucegodlesky] sometimes I go a long time without a warp, other times they seem to breed [Ted T] How deep is the hardening (penetration) when hardening, and then while drawing to desired temp! [steve sells] hardening is totally dependant on 4 things, One is the steel used, another is grain size, the temps and quench [Fionnbharr (finn:-)] If I am not mistaken I have hardened a 2 handed sword without gloves, but I might have been wearing them... [steve sells] a 10xx series is shallow hardening steel, and anything with chrome in it will harden most the time all the way through [brucegodlesky] V and Mn also, right Steve? [steve sells] small grains, always preferred in blades may keep the hardening depth shallower than with larger grain sizes [steve sells] there are also other additions like Vanadium and WTUNgston that also assist in grains size remaining small, and assist in hardening [steve sells] MNH to a point makes it "medium hardening: as I can say it will make deep hardening, but these all work together [steve sells] Yes bruce [markb] aus forging [steve sells] all US steel have Mn in them we have no choice unless we make out own [LDW] What thickness of the cutting edge would be too thick to have the cutting edge not hardened with a 10 series steel after grinding, I am talking about an approximate thickness. I am assuming 1/16" would be fine, but I do not know for sure. [steve sells] 1/16 is fine remember the de-carb zone when heating before the hardening its thin, but we want enough extra thickness to be able to remove that too [brucegodlesky] I think with shallow hardening steels, a knife blade still hardens thru and thru [Finnr] on salvaged steel it's better to go a bit thick for the first blade from a batch . You can make it thinner but not thicker [brucegodlesky] it's when you start fooling with thick profiles , shallow vs deep shows up [steve sells] yup To thin and even if ya don't burn the edge you will still have soft spots due to de-carbonization

From Knife chat Jan 16,2009 [LDW] Is there a proper side to mark your knife? Whether its a touchmark or stencil. I have seen them on either side, but was wondering if there was a standard. [steve sells] totally I warranty is MY NAME, so I wont repair unless I am told to. I would prefer to replace it [markb] They should get your best work. Same as with any job coming out of the shop [steve sells] I do SLSELLS on one side with 1/16 stamp, and the other with Fenris Forge the forge name I have in 1/16 and 1/8 depending blade size so I use both actually [Finnr] on antler handles I scrimshaw my touch on the butt [steve sells] IF my son ever gets back in forge he will have his name, as well as fenris forge, when he is good enough: OK I stamp forge name on anything from my shop that I warranty. Also the maker name is there too on knife or camp set tools its as much a part of my advertising as the web site we all put a lot of work into our projects, we SHOULD put our names on it if we are ashamed to place our names, then it should NOT leave the shop [Finnr] everyone has an individual style, but that isn't advertising to people who don't know your style [markb] I would like to know how to get a good clean block letter stamp like HENRY as example [steve sells] I bought my stamps. using standard fonts is fairly cheap I paid 80 for my 3 stamps using THEIR font, if I wanted something else, it would have been about $120 each [m_brothers] from where, i've been looking for a place to get a John Martin Stamp Fromt [Finnr] for a name buying is the easiest my bindrune is simple enough that I made my own stamp [brucegodlesky] yep [markb] Stamp cold? [Finnr] Hot [markb] Could you post pic on forum? [steve sells] I stamp HOT red to black heat on final normalizing cycle before hardening [m_brothers] how do you polish up the name then? [steve sells] I though of a bind rune, but choose std english due to my non ren-fiar type work [Finnr] I'm going to do a new stamp as soon a I can work in the forge again I could do a BP while I make it [steve sells] you don't john, the name is inset deep into the steel I polish over the stamp maybe using a tooth brush to clean up later [Finnr] OK! I'll shoot pics [m_brothers] any place i could order from? [markb] Any etchers here? [LDW] I got a quote the other day for 135 dollars [steve sells] do a fast search around places before ya have one made because it would be a shame if you made one and found another maker using one that looks close [LDW] I etch [brucegodlesky] a name stamp? Buckeye Engraving [Finnr] only to bring up the pattern [markb] After finial finish? Steve sells] I got mine from CER Metal & Marking Corporation 2224 Industrial Drive Suite C, Highland,IN, 46322 (219)924-9710 they have a web site somewhere. [steve sells] chemical stamping most likely should be done when finished [Finnr] etch your name after mark? is that the question? [LDW] I built one of those etching machines that was on the web where you buy everything from radio shack. Now I want a stamp. [markb] etch would be that last thing? [Finnr] I would say so [markb] Press for stamp? [brucegodlesky] I do it by hand but it's tricky [steve sells] I didn't bother with a etch because of the pattern welded damascus I do it wouldn't show well, so got hot stamps made [Finnr] I hammer, but am thinking of using an arbor press for the new stamp [brucegodlesky] in the process op building a press [markb] Would a press be used hot or cold or ether [brucegodlesky] I would say either [Finnr] I like working hot [steve sells] I have seen makers use an engraver to make their marks, they just sign them [brucegodlesky] I have a jeweler do some for me. dirt cheap [markb] i have individual letter stamps a jig for these, yours not mine? [Finnr] with my handwriting a stamp is a better idea [brucegodlesky] usually 3-5 bucks apiece [brucegodlesky] I had one and he took ill, supposed to be back at it soon, probably with higher prices too [LDW] Batson did a demo on engraving at our conference a couple years ago. He made it look easy. [m_brothers] for John Martin, should it a line or John second line martin [Finnr] I want to learn, but there are only so many things a person can do [steve sells] your call, buy remember the larger/longer a stamp the harder to use it on small items [Fionnbharr (finn:-)] All complex things are a series of simple things combined in a specific process [markb] simple isn't always easy [brucegodlesky] I use 2 stamps. One is BIRDOG the other FORGE. The first for stock removal blades and both for forged

From Knife chat. Jan 16, 2009 [m_brothers] could I weld a crack in the top of his blade, spine area, it's all the way through, if I grind it out and the weld, and whatever, is it still usable? knife will be preheated to 300F for welding then will be put back in oven at 300 for 15 minutes, then allowed to cool down slowly you can try but most welds will always show and it may never talk a beating as before. Many times its best to remake the blade. Any other opinions on this ? I am not concerned about it showing to be honest [Finnr] there is the chance too that you have micro cracking that dosen't show [m_brothers] & what rod should I use?? im thinking s-e-3 rod [Finnr] What is the blade made of to start with John? [steve sells] One major problem about repairing breaks, Ask WHY did it break in the first place? as as Finnr pointed out more cracks you don't see. a big problem anytime a "Found steel" is used also [Finnr] I'd just forge a new one, not worth the effort to repair a blade that may or may not stand up I've tossed lots that showed cracking [m_brothers] ok, well ill talk to him, he's calling the shots, im just the welder [steve sells] I never repair my blades, I replace them, but I have welded another persons blade, as use as a wall hanger ONLY [m_brothers] its from the quench, the oil was a bit cold [markb] What about tang to blade welds? [Finnr] toss it [steve sells] I will not warranty nor allow a blade to be used as anything except decoration,if its not solid. I weld tangs, but not a butt weld. I over lap and forge weld it solid, then re heat treat [Finnr] I do that , I will silver solder threaded stock on some hidden tang blades [steve sells] try to keep the integrity of the steel a knife in use gets a lot of pressure on the blade if there is any problem in th steel it will carry over into the use as more problems [markb] Would mig welded tang to blade be OK [steve sells] I tack with mig, then forge weld, but a good welder should not have to forge weld it also [brucegodlesky] works for me with preheat and post heat [steve sells] I prefer to use forge welding for all joints in the blades, just my preference [markb] Good welder thats my problem [Finnr] that's why I forge weld I feel safer that way [steve sells] I am a electrician not a real welder, I just slept at holiday inn express a few times [markb] I play a welder on tv [steve sells] a good welder, can make the weldment as strong or stronger than the patent metal,. I am not one of those so I forge weld as I am good at that [steve sells] but I do know many that can. [Finnr] the main thing to me is if a customer is paying good money they should get a good knife

What is wrong with using the real terms, they are simple, and accurate. anything else may only confuse issues.

how to do WHAT would be a good start, what would you like to know/do ? Welcome to IFI

a nice one:) good start John

Great link Woody. I though it was no longer available free since the contract signed, and its selling for $95 now, so I strongly advise getting this downloaded while we still can for free.

what is silver steel? Please use standard terms, for accurate information. revision: I have just been informed that "silver steel" IS a standard term in the UK. My mistake.

I have NO control of where people log into, but its easy to change rooms. See #3 above. Sorry

Due to popular request, We have loaded a few sticky's to answer many of the questions that pop up on a regular basis. We have tried to keep things simple so you don't have to get a PhD to make a blade. Also We are implementing a few slight changes to the Friday live knife chat. 1) We will post a list of topics in advance for coverage in the chat, beginning with basic and progressing to more advanced topics. 2) We will now Log the chats, and compile a summary to be posted in the knife section for reference later. 3) I am are aware that some get logged into the knife chat by the system. I have no clue how this is happening, but please show some manners, and switch yourself back to the main blacksmithing chat if you do not wish to take part, rather than interrupt the knife chat. The control switch is at the top of the main window labeled ROOM at the right side of this bar is the room change switch, an arrow to toggle between the rooms. The posting by Andrew today address issues with the chat becomming unstable with more than 25 persons logged in, and that is connected I am sure. This should assist those that can not attend, or must come in late to see what was covered. Hope to get some feedback on the sticky's and these new changes soon so we can adjust things asap.

Advanced ideas for thermal treatments for blade steels. The previous installment covered the conversion of perlite into martensite for hardening steel. In addition, there are a few other ways we can use heat to make changes to our steels internal structure. Excessive heat can cause the grains to grow to a point where an otherwise fine blade steel is unusable, If it has not been burned, we can use various techniques to get our grains small again. In the past there was an erroneous term for a mythical process called “edge packing”, which was a method used to get the grain smaller. The theory was that hammering steel colder than normal forging temperatures would shatter the grains to get them smaller, this is partially a a false assumption. Steel grains do not pack. And most anything we do as to grain size in our forging, is mostly wiped out during the final heat treating anyway. We have already touched on triple normalizing to refine grain. This is a variation for refinement is using temperature control to get even finer grains in our steel. In this process, we start at a point about 125F above the curie temp of the steel in question for our normalizing/ After allowing to cool, the next step is taking the steel to a point about 75F above the curie point, and for the third time about 25F above. This thermal cycling by 50F steps is to cause the grain boundaries to reform again, as with our other triple normalizing process. But by reducing the target temperature by 50 degrees F each time, we are not allowing the time for the same grain growth before being cycled again. So therefore gets us somewhat smaller grains than we would have if using the curie temperature alone. Another thermal process is called Sub Zero freezing, the science behind this process is that because when hardening, not all of the austenite is converted to martensite during the quench, this left over is referred to as “retained austenite”. But this will usually at least partly convert given a long enough time. The sub-zero Quench is to force this conversion in a more reasonable amount of time, allowing us to get it tempered, rather than allowing it to remain as the brittle untempered martensite. This is mostly applicable to High alloy steels, but some low alloy's may benefit from a home shop process, Only testing will prove if this is true or false. A home method involving crushed dry ice and acetone, can result in a temperature drop to about -170F, while a true Sub-zero quench with liquid Nitrogen will result in a drop to -270F, and is used for many stainless steels. In the Home method, dry ice is crushed and placed in a container, along with the blade, then acetone is poured into this, and blade left to get cold, and convert some of the retained austenite into martensite. This process can be volatile, so take proper precautions. Either method requires a follow up with a tempering cycle to address the newly formed martensite. Many alloy steels we use have other issues that may at times work in our favor. Carbide precipitation can be used with good effect in the the form of alloy banding or carbide banding, While most metallurgists work very hard to avoid this in their steels, as blade makers one can exploit this for a 'Wootz' type effect on the surface of our blades. A mild acid bath, such as used with pattern welding, can assist in accentuating this effect. Next is a suggestion on how to adjust our techniques to our steels. No matter what we buy there can be unknown additions due to the modern manufacturing process, as well as the substitution some suppliers do when out of a given product. Add to this, we all have our own equipment, not as accurate as the testing labs that make the charts. So our temperatures can be off. Getting to know the properties of our chosen steel can aid us in getting better blades. Remember that the spec sheets temps and soak times are for 1 inch thicknesses, in blade work we are dealing with much thinner sections. First, harden using the manufacturers recommended temperature. For this example I will use 1550F. After hardening test this steel, a blade is not needed, only thickness matters. Now break and examine the grain. Then harden another the exact same way at 1500F, then another at 1600F. You may have to do a few more at various temps, but compare what hardening temp changes alone does to this thickness of steel. Also feel free to allow a soak to this thin steel, and compare. Testing like this or similar testing methods is the only way to decide if you should soak your steel or not at the hardening temp before your quench. I think you will find most simple steels do not need a soak. In fact many will have pronounced grain growth from this extra heat. This way you can discover the exact perfect temperature for this batch of steel, with your methods of making them. Also common are techniques known as “Differential Hardening” where as only a portion of the blade is hardened. As in a Japanese Katana, creating a line of demarcation, know as Hamon. Usually clay is used to mask off the spine of the blade, which slows the cooling upon quenching. Also one can “edge quench” With this method only the cutting edge and a small fraction of the blade in immersed into the quenchant. Both of these methods still need to be tempered. Along these same line is a process called “Differential tempering” while we still temper the entire blade, in this procedure we draw the spine even more. As an example if we draw the temper color to gold (380F) on the cutting edge, but want more flex in our blade, we can use a heated iron, plate, or even small tip torch; to draw the spine only, to a blue(500F). This is much easier to do if we place the cutting edge in water while heating the back. This is very nice as it gives the option of a blade that is tough as a blue temper would be, but the cutting edge is as a gold temper of the same blade. Because of course a blue temper for the entire blade would not hold the same type of edge for long because it would be softer. Salt tanks are becoming popular lately, due in part to Prof Bain, and Howard Clark's work. I will not go into detail here, as that is a subject for advanced makers topic of its own. It also has higher risk of danger if mistakes are made. I will state that special salts are heated to heat or cool the steel being treated. These salts are NOT table salt, and any moisture on the blade upon entering the salt can result in an explosion as water turns into steam expanding about 150 times. But these are perfect for creating “bainite”, or even “austempering”, “marquenching”, and various other methods that are far beyond the scope of a simple Sticky at a blacksmith site. Bainite at http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/newbainite.html Or read "Metallurgy Therory and Practice" by Dell Allen See the blacksmithing lessons section at http://www.iforgeiron.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1047:lb00130005-heat-treating-information-&catid=47:lb-000-100&Itemid=45 for more detailed information.

welcome to IFI. On Friday nights starting at 10pm EST we have an Hour devoted to a live knife chat here. Stop in. Also if you go to your preferences, Please post a location, as there may be a smith near you that can help.

welcome to IFI

Before you get too far into this project, I hope you will reconsider the size. That seems very small, even a hobbit would have trouble working inside that little thing. Of course it will be the size of an outhouse, and those have uses in the boonies too:rolleyes:

A member of another smithing group I am on uses pine charcoal. why ? its not only free to him, but he would have to PAY not to use it. Let me explain: He owns a commercial hardwood charcoal making company, Soft woods, mainly Pine, end up in the kilns and are considered a contaminant. So he tried using it in his hobby forge, rather than pay the trash man to remove it. He says it does burn faster than hardwood, hence the preference for hardwoods for making charcoal. But it does get hot, and the resins are not an issue because its already burned off making the charcoal.

Nice design, good flow of lines. The cable colors nice and clear as well. You did well with this one :D

Ater you do this for a while you will get better at preventing the formation of scale in the first place. Also if you will leave the blade on the thick side when forging, you w not only will have room to clean, but also there will be a de-carb zone when you heat treat, that will need to be removed afterward as well.

if the guys pouring didn't do it already, I suggest top coating with a sealer soon. This is normally done soon after pouring as it also assists in the cure. I used it after I did the brush finish for anti-slip, while still green.

what ever you do, Don't be afraid to have multiple items done ahead of time in various stages of completion. (NO blades allowed in Indiana schools) As an example, if I were to do a knife. I would not expect them to watch me hammer it all, I would start one phase, enough to show what and how its done, then set it aside and grab the next one where that phase was finished and move to the next. like TV magic. Idea for your demo: For the key fob. have one finished, to show at the start. Then a grab a plain section of stock ready to go, Flatten the end, and then start to make the veins. Now set this aside and grab another that is veined and start the curl. after curling brass brush the leaf section, and you are done. You have only saved a few minutes this way, but this assists in prevention of boredom of the students watching, that do not want to be there on the first place. This general idea applies to many items at a demo. Just my dos centavos

careful Frosty, it may be a TRAP

turns on with the Clapper ?

coat away, but don't expect that paint to last.

better than getting beaten with a ROD, that's what I got from MINE