Happy Monday,

I have a friend whose dad has an extensive fab shop, and we have an argument. He believes that fabricating and metal 3D printing is better than forging on most fronts, in that fabrication is faster, offers more precise results, and there are more possibilities. I agree that it can be faster, and precise, but I think that in doing so, you lose uniqueness, and craftsmanship. Where do y’all stand on this?

Well, are you doing precision work or aesthetic work? 
I wouldn’t trade what I do for precise anything. Yes, a cnc shop could make hundreds of identical products. If that’s the goal, then it will be better than a blacksmith.

if you want something hand made, a machine shop will not do.

Good Morning,

Perspective is not binary, there are many ways to skin the Cat. If you don't have the Machinery to assist you, You Forge. Sometimes you blend Forging and Fabrication. Some procedures you can't do with Fabrication, Some procedures you can't do easily by Forging. There is no ONE Answer.

Neil

I'm more of a silversmith than a blacksmith but i have an analogy that might help.

Would you rather have a hang forged ring or a cast ring.

I can make a wax ring tree and cast 50 at once making them much cheaper to produce. 

Or, you can take an ingot of metal and roll or beat it flat. Bend it around and solder it together to make one ring at a time.

The forged ring is actually stronger because you are compressing the molecules together.

As for the 3d printing as far as I know no one is actually 3d printing  true metal objects vs something you have to cook in a furnace other than SpaceX.

I use a regular 3d printer to print  objects in plastic and use that as my mold to cast metal alloys in delft clay or sand.

 

 

The bigger question is, Better by what standard? 

Your friend is absolutely right that fabrication writ large (including 3D printing) is faster and more precise than blacksmithing in most applications. If speed and precision are your goal, then fabrication is clearly better.

On the other hand, you are absolutely right that forged items are each unique and better showcase the skill of the individual smith. If uniqueness and craftsmanship are your goal, then smithing is clearly better. 

Both fabrication and forging are means to an end. To say which one is "better" requires understanding both what the end actually *is* and also *how* each of those means achieves the end.  

20 minutes ago, Florida Man Metals said:

The forged ring is actually stronger because you are compressing the molecules together.

More precisely, forging creates discontinuities in the crystalline structure, and these discontinuities increase the material's resistance to bending and other distortions. 

The word 'better' is trouble. 'Better' depends.. There's a connection to forming metal by hand that doesn't exist within the mathematics of programming and engineering a cad item.  But we can't judge someone else's thrill I guess. Standing at an anvil or flypress deciding where, when and how to apply pressure to this piece of metal to make it change into something I'm dreaming of is good for my spirit and soul.  It's good for my brain.  I don't know if i could say that if a computer was doing it all.  I imagine it would feel a little empty and boring.  

Thanks John. I knew someone with the words would correct me and help me learn.

 

Questions like these always bring me back to what ThomasPowers used to say. "I need a vehicle. Which one is best?" And then he would ask a series of questions about use, size, capacity, to help determine if a Prius was best or an industrial dumptruck. 

Best is always in relation. 

Good is a standalone unit. 

Suitable is a definition towards a given task. 

Effective is a descriptor of HOW.

 

Many words meaning different things. The old saying, knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting tomatoes in a fruit smoothie. 

Wow, thank you for all the input! The iPad died, so I wasn’t able to see replies for a bit, so sorry if it looked like I was ghosting y’all. I do lean towards more esthetic, hence why I enjoy ornamental blacksmithing. Part of what he says is “I can make whatever you can, but better and faster,” or “I can make cooler stuff” and yes, better is the trouble word, because “cooler/better” is determined by his perspective. If we both have our own end goals and passions, our perspective will be different .

A fabricator or machinist cannot make what a blacksmith makes. They may make a similar item, but even from the standpoint of the molecules and the physical properties, blacksmithing does something different than, say, welding or lathing. 

If he can make anything better and faster, then why do people keep buying my S hooks? 

A Machinist removes material. A Welder/Fabricator adds or subtracts material. A Blacksmith moves molecules/material.

No two do the same thing!! Can't Compare effectiveness.

Neil

1 hour ago, Asa Simons said:

If we both have our own end goals and passions, our perspective will be different .

And this is why we also need to develop our aesthetic point of view at the same time that we develop our skills. 

14 hours ago, Asa Simons said:

so sorry if it looked like I was ghosting y’all.

Ummm...it was only 5 hours since your original post.  If this is considered ghosting, then I'm the biggest ass on the net. 

I often only check the net once a day and sometimes will go 2 days before responding.

lol! We all get busy!

Watched a video a couple weeks ago of making tomato wine. 

I usually pop in once or twice an afternoon. A much needed break from reading the news. 

This argument is comparing apples to oranges. 2 different processes that produce different results. 

One of the reasons forging is no obsoleted in industry is because of it’s strength advantage. The flow of the metal grain structure flows the part shape. (If well forged!) Machining, fabrication, and “additive” manufacturing can match this property. 
 

Keep it fun,

David

David, did you mean "can't match this property"?

Yes, that’s what I meant…

7 hours ago, Asa Simons said:

lol! We all get busy!

Also sometimes like in my case, I just don't have an answer. So better not to say anything.

Each method has advantages or disadvantages.  I know a guy who has worked on a 3d printer for NASA with an intended use in printing parts in space rather than machining them.  He is also trying to sell this technology to various manufacturers such as those involved in aircraft production.  Certain parts of aircraft start as large blocks of aluminum which are forged to a rough shape and then machined.  A 1000 pound chunk metal ends up weighing 100 pounds after arriving at its net shape so lots of waste.  The 3d printed part might use 102 pounds of aluminum wire to make the same part.

I know its somewhat old but to add to this, contrary to what most have said, machining is far superior in practicality's sake. You can make things you would never make with hammer and tongs. For example, a blacksmith might use a swage block which was machined to have perfectly round indents (i know they can be forged but it isnt nearly as precise). Perfectly flat and round surfaces can also be machined/ turned whereas they would never be hammered that way.

Personally I would be over the moon if I had my own lathe and milling machine, and intend on making one someday. But thats because I love making things and some things can only be made by machining. 

Obv blacksmithing takes the cake in terms of aesthetics and beauty but to me personally aesthetics are often second to practicality. 

Theres also no reason they have to be mutually exclusive, a Smith could forge a nice pleasant piece that needs specific tolerances to fit a certain application and those areas can be machined, leaving the rest of the piece nice to the eye.

Both processes have their place. It’s a lot more efficient to forge a swivel hook and turn the shank true than to mill the whole thing out of a big block of steel.  
 

I love my little lathe — a little too much. I end up spending hours standing in front of it, when forging would be more fun. 

>> intended use in printing parts in space << ... >>Personally I would be over the moon if<<

Isn't it time someone tried blacksmithing in space?

Would the inertia or the fire be more of the issue? I’ve heard that in space fire is spherical….

I have seen an article that stated that putting 2 pieces of steel touching each other in outer space makes them molecularly bond togheter.  Instant black smith. Wonder how well it actually works? Fall apart when bought back to earth?