Phillip-SC Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) I am about to do some repairs on an old ornamental iron fence that has a number of missing brackets where the top rail connects to posts. It is missing about half of these (20 or so). I want to find something just similar to what remains on the fence, NOT simply use a bent metal tab. These -- or anything like them -- appear to be impossible to find. These cast iron brackets are very common to see on old iron fences, but zero luck finding replacements. Apologies for no photo, but here is a couple of images. I can make these, but surely someone offers these -- ANY help is appreciated! THANKS! Edited February 1, 2023 by Phillip-SC added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 If you haven't tried them already try googling King Architectural Metals. They have a LOT of fence hardware and might have your brackets. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 1, 2023 Author Share Posted February 1, 2023 Thank you, George, but NOPE. VERY Surprised, they do not. Considering these brackets are just about everywhere you see old fences and rails, it is amazing this part is not even mentioned at the suppliers. There is a place called Stewart Ironworks in Kentucky that actually seems to use these brackets on the custom fences, but they do not sell them or reveal a source at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1forgeur Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 Can you make one from square tubing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted February 1, 2023 Share Posted February 1, 2023 (edited) I try not to swear, but I thought for sure that I saw these at Industrial Metal Supply last week, out here on the west coast. Their website does not have half of the ornamental iron that is actually on the floor. They are a western states operation, but that does not keep me from putting their hardware in a flat rate box... What is the urgency level of your project? Cheers, Robert Taylor Edit: Phillip-SC, I found a treasure at IMS last week, three pounds of it, and then I went shopping for for it on line. 5 - 20 x less than online retail. So I am definitely going back. I am requesting the favor of a timely response.... Edited February 1, 2023 by Anachronist58 Addendum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Phillip, have you CALLED (not emailed, texted, or otherwise avoided person to person contact) Stewart Ironworks and asked them directly where they obtain their brackets? If not, do so. That may be the easiest solution for the problem. Or, as 1Forgeur suggested, they would be pretty easy to fabricate. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 Thank you ALL for your fast responses -- so much appreciated. 5 hours ago, 1forgeur said: Can you make one from square tubing? Yes, I probably can, and that is a good idea if no supplier is located (at a reasonable cost, of course). Thanks. 4 hours ago, Anachronist58 said: I try not to swear, but I thought for sure that I saw these at Industrial Metal Supply last week... What is the urgency level of your project? That would be GREAT. I will definitely call IMS tomorrow. Urgent -- like I have about three weeks for the whole job, which includes a lot of other stuff. 1 hour ago, George N. M. said: Phillip, have you CALLED Stewart Ironworks and asked them directly where they obtain their brackets? If not, do so. That may be the easiest solution for the problem. Or, as 1Forgeur suggested, they would be pretty easy to fabricate Yes, a few times, but have been forced to leave a message at what seems to be a contractor's location. Then once, on the phone where the impression was given that the part was not available except on their custom work. I respect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 Regarding making this myself, the pattern could be flattened and cut as a negative/hole out of masonite (old clipboard material is good). Then a bunch could be plasma cut from THICK sheet metal, then drilled, then bent into shape and welded. Man, that is a lot of time ... and WORK (does anyone remember Maynard G. Krebbs?) These brackets have to be offered somewhere. Thank you all again. Please keep the ideas coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goods Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 If you know someone with a CNC plasma cutter you could have them cut them out pretty quickly. At work when we’re designing up brackets like these we would add cut in the corners. This makes them much easier to bend to shape and make the bend locations very accurate. A large laser cutter is used, and I’m not sure if it’s possible to make that type of quick starts and stops with a cnc plasma cutter cleanly, but if that’s an option, that’s the way I’d go. Keep it fun, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 I don't have a fancy CAD machine but my first thought on how to make one is as follows: Start with a legth of thick walled square tubing of the appropriate inside dimensions. Cut a length twice the length of the final bracket (the sides with the holes in the above illustration) (call it 2X. Cut off the sides and bottom for X distance. You now have a box of X length with a tab of X sticking out on one end. Then, fold down the tab so that you have a box open on one side. Weld the edges of the tab if you need that much strength. Then, cut the box on the diagonal giving you triangular sides. Drill the holes and there you are. As I think about it you could start with a length of tubing 3X, close up 2 tabs to make a closed box, cut it on the diagonal and you would have 2 brackets and no waste. I hope this make sense. It would be a lot easier to show on the back of a bar napkin (how all great projects are originally designed.) "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Another option would be to cut two pieces of angle iron to the inside width, sandwich them between two square pieces of plate, weld around the edges, cut the squares corner-to-corner, and grind smooth. Here’s a back-of-the-envelope sketch (a poor second to a bar napkin, but it’s still morning): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 I'd start with channel iron the correct width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGoodWithUsernames Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Hopefully this doesn't get cut for being a commercial site. Actually I just won't post the link. But go to open builds parts store and search for "Cast corner bracket" it isn't exactly what you're looking for but might be easier to modify those to make them work than fabricating a bunch from scratch. Edit: apparently after modifying the link it still takes you there somehow, if the mods can fix it but still keep the web name for the OP so he can find them that's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 12 hours ago, George N. M. said: I don't have a fancy CAD machine but my first thought on how to make one is as follows: Start with a legth of thick walled square tubing ... Thanks, George. That is a very good idea. Pretty much at my witt's end finding this very common bracket, so may go that way. 2 hours ago, NoGoodWithUsernames said: Hopefully this doesn't get cut for being a commercial site. Actually I just won't post the link. ... Yep, the link worked. MUCH appreciated, that is EXACTLY the type of thing needed, but the size is way to small and it is the only one they offer. And it is aluminum, but that is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 2, 2023 Author Share Posted February 2, 2023 STILL gobsmacked and stunned that this is either rare or unavailable. These are everywhere... on fences and rails. Not whining, but amazed. May be a small business opportunity for someone younger than myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 2, 2023 Share Posted February 2, 2023 Try Openbuilds but search "fence brackets" These are $1.49 ea. 20mm x 20mm x 17mm, cast iron. Or did I find the same one by another name? Thanks for the tip about the site, No good with user names I've bookmarked it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 6 hours ago, Phillip-SC said: STILL gobsmacked and stunned Pm coming.... Robert Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 12 hours ago, JHCC said: Another option would be to cut two pieces of angle iron to the inside width, sandwich them between two square pieces of plate, weld around the edges, cut the squares corner-to-corner, and grind smooth. ... Yeah, pretty sure that or something very similar is what I will go ahead and do -- Thanks. Simple is usually best ... yet again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 3, 2023 Share Posted February 3, 2023 Lol, the Devil's in the details and this detail will prolly be the most expensive part of the job. I like Thomas's idea of starting with the proper sized channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 3, 2023 Author Share Posted February 3, 2023 double reply - sorry -- see below 4 hours ago, anvil said: Lol, the Devil's in the details and this detail will prolly be the most expensive part of the job. I like Thomas's idea of starting with the proper sized channel. On 2/2/2023 at 10:49 AM, ThomasPowers said: I'd start with channel iron the correct width. Yes, channel would be GREAT... BUT (Mr. But always seems to show up) the flatbar to be inserted is 1-1/2in wide, and there is no standard of channel locally with that inside dimension. Dang it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 Lol, A grinder will solve your fit problem there. However, if for some reason you can't grind the flatbar to fit the channel profile, and you can 't find actual replacement castings, then I would, as a traditional smith, enjoy using your pattern above and modify the bend area with added material for a forged to dimension right angle bend. The formula is half the thickness of the material added to each side of the bend. Lol, from the simple to the sublime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 47 minutes ago, anvil said: Lol, A grinder will solve your fit problem there... However and modify the bend area with added material for a forged to dimension right angle bend. The formula is half the thickness of the material added to each side of the bend. Thanks! Just to make sure the patterns are right, if the width of the top flatbar toprail (yes, I know channel top bars are the norm now, but this old fence is really OLD) is 1-1/2in and the thickness is about 3/16 or maybe 0.2 in with old paint, then the cutout finished blank should be wider? Two side bends over the flatbar, so 1.5 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 1.7 if I understand it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 4, 2023 Author Share Posted February 4, 2023 2 hours ago, anvil said: The formula is half the thickness of the material added to each side of the bend. Whoops! I goofed. You mean the material that will be bent into the part for the bracket. Duh. I got now. That material will be 1/8 inch thick sheet steel.. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip-SC Posted February 5, 2023 Author Share Posted February 5, 2023 Thanks again to all! I went ahead with the pattern idea. Test pieces using 11 gauge turned out pretty well, so a little thicker will work. Note my fine "CNC" machine (masonite lasts a long time and 6 legal size clipboards are about 12USD)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 5, 2023 Share Posted February 5, 2023 Very cool project! Thanks for the detailed share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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