Burner Tuning Question

[LeeHene]

Hey guys,

I've been reading through posts on here for a while and it's about like drinking from a firehose. Great knowledge base!

My 12 year old boy has been interested in smithing (I am too) so for Christmas we got him a Hell's Forge single burner. I plan to build a nicer forge with a ribbon burner if he sticks with it.

I have a question in relation to the jet size. The manual mentioned it being .035"

I found that the regulator doesn't have to be opened much to heat the forge enough to work steel. (Which is good, because I'm making him buy his own propane.) However, in order to keep the flame from occasionally running back up into the 3/4 burner tube, I have to open it up more for the sake of velocity. There is a fair bit of dragon's breath as a result. Would a smaller jet help with this? I'm tempted to update it with a Frosty T-burner.

Also, when I try to partially cover the back to reflect heat, it also has the same effect on stability of the burner.

Thank you in advance,

Lee

[Goods]

Lee, sorry, I can’t help much with the tuning, but I do have a two safety concerns. First, it looks like you son is wearing synthetic materials at the forge. Most synthetic materials are a big point of concern at the forge. Things can/will go wrong and you don’t want a hot piece of metal melting your clothes to you. Second, you need to get a heat shield on the wall behind the forge (if that’s where it’s going to stay.) You don’t want the dragons breath from the back of the forge to cook you wall. Safety first!

I can’t think of a better way to spend time with your boy. Learning together is a fun bonding experience! Look up you local ABANA affiliate. Hammer-ins are a great way to meet other smiths and get pointer you never would know you needed!

Keep it fun, 

David

[LeeHene]

Thank you for the words of warning. I do need to get my son a leather apron and a cotton shirt for safety. As for position of the forge, that is temporary. I was very careful to monitor temps of all surroundings and there are some firebricks behind the forge too. I'll get a better arrangement worked out very soon!

[Latticino]

A couple of inches of dragon's breath exiting the forge is standard.  I wouldn't be concerned until it gets past 8" in a darkish room.

[LeeHene]

Thank you, great to know!

Any ideas to stop the sputtering when the regulator is turned down and/or the back is restricted?

[Frosty]

If you put the forge on a piece of cement backer board and tack some to the wall behind it you won't have nearly the concerns about starting a fire. Even if the dragon's breath doesn't get close enough to start a fire it will dry the wood out to the point it won't take much.

No synthetics is a cardinal rule, cotton, wool, leather, linen, etc. are all good.

There's a good chance you won't be able to turn your forge down much. Naturally aspirated burners are sensitive to back pressure and that will increase when you close off the back. More seriously with this type forge are the exhaust gasses leaving the forge, the burner is right above and the gasses will wrap around the top and be drawn in, replacing combustion air. 

Moving it away from the wall or better putting it on it's own stand so air can freely flow will help, a LITTLE cross breeze is a good idea no matter what. 

Your forge will get hotter if you use fire brick to partially close the front opening. The project shown being heated above only requires a small opening.

Ditto being an excellent Father Son activity, good on you! You and he will never forget.

Frosty The Lucky.

[LeeHene]

Thanks a bunch guys!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

From the picture the only suggestion I have that hasn't been mentioned is the anvil should be closer to the forge. One step is about standard that way the steel doesn't loose much heat getting to it. Might take a look at some of the shop layouts in the building or designing a shop thread.

[Mikey98118]

I won't discuss the burner. You could do better, but it isn't your principle problem; space is.  for reasons I will never understand manufacturers keep positioning single flame burners at top-dead-center on their oval forges. It only takes a mount's thought to see it should be placed high up on one side, and aimed toward the far edge of the forge's floor.

You or your son has placed a thick brick over that floor, aggravating the lack of distance for the burner's flame to do its work.

Nevertheless, the forge's interior is reaching nearly into yellow incandescent range; this tells me that what you need isn't a change in burner, but a change in forge interior. Lose the brick; it will do far better service covering the rear opening.

Then, stack a baffle wall made of firebricks about 1" to 1-1/2" away from the edge of the front opening. Use Kast-O-lite 30 or Plistix 900 to make a much thinner forge floor, so as to protect the ceramic fiber blanket, and run Plistix around the rest of the forge interior, to protect the blanket and your son's health.

Happy Holidays to you and yours

[Frosty]

That's the cheapest place to put burners Mike.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I bought myself a similar forge for Christmas this year. It will make a fun little garage heater while I make serious burners

This spring I will toss the burner, plug the top hole, and install two 3/8" burners in the same position I suggested for him to.

I think a small oval forge is a great idea, but totally not worth my time to build, when so many small company s want to do most of the work for me

And buy the way, Happy Holidays to you and the wife, Frosty; how did curling in a Santa hat go this year?

[Frosty]

Cool, I look forward to seeing the new forge.

The ice was REALLY slow, I had trouble getting rocks into the house. Deb dug out a clip on elf cap that fit my helmet. I'm not curling without my bicycle helmet I've enjoyed too many head injuries already. As poorly as I threw all night I threw the winning rock! The teams tied and being Skip I had to throw the tie breaker in a one throw sudden death cast. Happily the ice had been polished enough by the night's throws I put it in the house and knocked the opposition's rock out.

I'm a little bit bummed, open curls are over for the season, it's all league curling and something is wrong with the club website so I can't log in to register. I'm going to have to call the president. < Sigh> It's too much fun to stop now. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[LeeHene]

Mikey, THANK YOU!

I'll certainly do as you suggested with the floor of his forge. Again, I have full intention to build a better one in the future when life calms down. November - end of December is always crazy busy with my wife's business, holidays and my son's birthday.

 

I'm looking forward to a ribbon burner and I've got an empty tank waiting! I've been trying to figure out which refractories to use. 

 

Lee

[Mikey98118]

You're welcome, Lee. Some fun things not to lose site of:

Although people seem to think that building the burner is a hassle, and building the forge is simple...things often work out the other way.

You started off with a small size gas forge, which is what most of us recommend to people for their first forge; this advice is given for lots of reasons, but the one that never grows dated is that you and your son will soon use the bigger forge for bigger projects, and will go right on using the small forge whenever you can, to save fuel costs, and to save over heating the shop in summer whether. As time goes by, the little forge will be what you use for demonstration work, when you get cornered into it.

Yes, you will get cornered into doing demos, and when you to, the little forge will be a whole lot easier to tote about

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning Lee,

You were talking about getting your son a leather apron. I would start him with a denim one first, not as heavy and a lot more pliable. You can make an Apron from the backs of the legs of a worn out front Denim Jeans (very few people wear out the seat part, generally the Knees). Just my $0.02

Neil

[LeeHene]

Good idea!

One more question...

At the moment the ceramic blanket inside of the forge is coated with Hellcoat 3000, as that's what it came with. Is that sufficient to protect the floor or should I add some Cast-O-lite 30?

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

I will let Mike or Jerry answer that. They are more familiar with what names, mean what.

Personally, I would use what you have and make it get as hot as you need it. You don't need welding heat every time you fire up the Forge. You need Forging heat!! That is the heat where it won't overcook what you are working on (burn it), but will heat your piece without making too much scale. Somewhere in there, you will find you will adjust your Propane regulator down, after the firebox comes up to reaction temperature (reacts the refractory). You can then adjust the gas down and keep the same heat!! You will also learn about drawing too much Propane from the bottle and it will freeze up, put the Propane Bottle in a Pail or Garbage Can of water (the water acts as a heat sink and warms up the bottle). The other way is to connect more than one bottle together and you cut the amount of draw, by the number of tanks you have. Two tanks, cuts the draw in half, takes longer to freeze up. A residence has a Propane Tank lying horizontal, this increases the surface area of the Liquid Propane. No freezing. Automobile Propane tanks are mounted horizontal for a reason!!

Enjoy the Journey, there is no end of the Road........  Keep it Simple!!

Happy New Year, Neil

[Mikey98118]

15 hours ago, LeeHene said:

At the moment the ceramic blanket inside of the forge is coated with Hellcoat 3000, as that's what it came with. Is that sufficient to protect the floor or should I add some Cast-O-lite 30?

So I looked up this product; on their own site, they describe it as refractory cement. Not as castable refractory, nor as rigidizer. A legitimate rigidizer, such as fumed silica, is able to penetrate the entire thickness of ceramic wool blanket, and has a dye in it, which allows you to judge when that job is done. A castable refractory makes a suitable flame face, and does much to physically protect the insulating layers from damage.

Refractory cement is designed to glue refractory bricks together; not as a substitute for refractory, nor as a flame face. What it will do quite adequately is mix together with the blanket in a thin layer to provide limited protection of the ceramic fiber, within that layer from greater damage than the flame would do without it. What it will not do is to stop flame damage, provide adequate physical protection to the insulation, or provide sufficient support for the insulation.

So, the answer to you question is no; it is not sufficient to protect the floor. Yes, you should  add some Cast-O-lite 30 over it to make a floor, and you should also add Plistix 900 over it, to coat the whole forge interior; even over a Kast-O-lite 30 floor.

While waiting for these items to arrive and be used, nothing prevents you from running the forge at lower heats, in a very temporary mode.

[LeeHene]

Wow, thank you for the information.

Any suggestions on where to get smaller quantities of Cast-O-lite and Plistix?

[Frosty]

You can buy both in small quantities for reasonable from the Iforge store, under the "gas forge supplies" button at the top of the page.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jimw3326]

The store shelves were bare 3 weeks ago.

[Mikey98118]

Ouch! Nevertheless, the same kind of deals can be had from knife maker suppliers; they stock various forge building refractories and coatings in small quantities that ship UPS for reasonable rates; its just one of the many convenient aspects of the decision to make that first gas forge a small one

[ThomasPowers]

Note that soaking a denim apron in a borax solution will help it's fire resistance even when dry and even helps clean it when you throw it in the washer!

[LeeHene]

Still no luck finding a small quantity of Cast-O-light 30. To make things worse, looks like the Hellcoat that came with the forge isn't holding up either. This was after application and break-in per directions. The forge has well under 10 hours of use, andnot running wide open either.

[Mikey98118]

This being the case, and because "circumstances alters cases," I recommend that you use ITC-100 to repair and coat your forge. You can get this product through Amazon, or through the Mister Volcano forge site on the Web.

Some of the circumstances that changed is that the company (ITC) has changed their formula for this product to something that is more compatible in forges. The other circumstances that has changed, is that their prices have gone down. You will see various ads at higher prices (about $50) for it on Amazon, but Mister Volcano is selling it for just $15 through their site, and also through Amazon.