Is this a flatter?

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I found this hammer awhile back, and I assumed it was some sort of narrow faced flatter, 

but I showed it to Randy last Saturday and he said he wasn’t sure, so i thought I’d put it on here and see what y’all had to say,

[Frosty]

It looks like a flatter from here.

A point of clarification here Billy. Flatters and other top tools are NOT hammers, they are struck tooling intended to be struck by hammers and do specific work on HOT steel and not strike blows themselves. 

From what I can see without a look at the face it looks like a good flatter though might need dressing. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

To me it looks like a drilling hammer that someone modified one end to square. Could have been for a specialized application as a flatter though. Guessing the flatter end is only about an inch & a half square with sharp edges & corners.

[Frosty]

Maybe but I have a narrow flatter just like it from a hoard of smithing tools I picked up some years ago. I figured it was for dressing up in limited spaces and don't use it myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Goods]

I would call that a “set” tool. Used similar to a flatter, but used to actually forge with. Like getting into a tight spot where the hammer face is too large or (in my case) where lack hammer control runs a risk of damaging nearby features.

David

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Here’s some more pictures of the face

 

[JHCC]

"Set hammer" gets my vote as well. While they are very similar, set hammers tend to be much smaller to get into tight spots; flatters tend to have a much larger faces, to even out large areas.

[Frosty]

Yeah, it looks just like mine, chips and all. The term set "hammer" confuses folks myself included at first, into thinking  you swing it. Agreed, having a smaller face would make it a "set hammer," That didn't come to mind earlier.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I'll go with that too, although all of the set hammers I have seen had a square face with rounded edges.

[Jobtiel1]

Maybe its a top swage to form the offsets in brackets for things like a gate latch or something like that.

~Jobtiel

[Frosty]

Agreed but IIRC some authors of blacksmithing books called any top tool a set tool. It's logical but doesn't jibe with most authors I've read. Hopefully the internet will go a long way towards standardizing the jargon. Maybe the next generation will sit around laughing at what old timers used to call things and argue with "traditionalists" who insist on using ancient terminology.

At least this stuff prove blacksmithing is a living craft! 

Nope Jobtiel, a "swage" is a concave depression usually a half cylinder used to compress or form a defined shape. A fuller is a like tool with a convex shape used to thin or impress shape into stock. The horn on an anvil can be used as a fuller as can a piece of round stock driven into the work. 

The bottom tool is neither, it's working surface is flat. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

13 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Maybe the next generation will sit around laughing at what old timers used to call things and argue with "traditionalists" who insist on using ancient terminology.

Five'll get you ten that the most hard-core traditionalists will be members of the younger generation who have only read part of what is available on the internet and who refuse to read the rest.

14 minutes ago, Frosty said:

some authors of blacksmithing books called any top tool a set tool.

I've seen "hot set" used for a handled hot chisel and "cold set" similarly for a handled cold chisel. I suspect (and I don't have any documentary evidence for this, so this is pure supposition) that set hammers may have originally been called "hammer sets", and the word order got reversed at some point along the way.

Come to think of it, let me go see if there's anything about this in the OED. Right back.

Update: Looks like I was wrong; it's more likely that "set hammer" is a shortening of "set down hammer" -- that is, a hammer for forging set-downs in a piece of iron.

[Frosty]

I'll see your 5 and raise you 5 that the old time hard core traditionalists making that argument plateaued early on their learning curves. I used to work with a guy who NEVER made mistakes and frequently "didn't" make exactly the SAME mistake repeatedly. 

The term could just as easily, maybe more so resulted from, "set ON tools," That were set on the work and included everything you didn't swing 

Truth is IMNSHO long standing tool names are like asking two blacksmiths a question and getting at least 3 different answers. 

One of the truly amazing things about Iforge is how many times a bunch of us dogpile the same answer. Talk about untraditional!

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

It's interesting how the jargon changes by country and century(s) .  In remote areas; one person can alter how people call things just by using *their* nomenclature!

[Frosty]

indeed. I've been trying to "standardize" terms and names for years now, not because they're the "Right" ones but to help minimize confusion. Some have taken hold though I can't think of an example right now. Darned TREE! Ooh ooh! There's one right there. For a while there we all KNEW a "great white" wasn't a shark it was a birch tree! 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Scott NC]

 

14 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

one person can alter how people call things just by using *their* nomenclature!

  It happens right here on IFI.  Someone says something in a unique way or uses a creative word, it will show up in other posts.  Interesting phenomenon.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Okay, sense we’re all talkin bout standard terms an minimizing confusion here

and more importantly just so I understand correctly! Lol

The tool I have found is called a set hammer…but its not a hammer…it’s a struck bottom tool…like a flatter… but it’s not a flatter… but it’s used to flatten… In small hard to get to places?

does anyone happen to have a picture of this tool bein used in action?

So I can get an idea of it’s original use? 

Or is this one of those weird tools that a body picks up thinking they’ll use it one day but ends up never using it an then the spiders claim it as their dusty domain to build webs on?

[JHCC]

19 minutes ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

So I can get an idea of it’s original use? 

Daniel Moss addresses this in one of his videos, bookmarked here at the relevant point:

The short version is that a flatter is generally for planishing (smoothing) flat surfaces, while a set hammer is for forging interior corners, like the set-downs on a pair of tongs. Think of it as a very square top fuller.

It can also be used anywhere you want to direct a lot of force very precisely, such as:

 

See also the 10:12 mark of this video about making box-jaw tongs:

 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

A Flatter does not HAVE to be handled, I have often used a scrap offcut that looks like it has a handle. No problem, just hit it straight and tight to your work.

Neil

[Frosty]

8 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

it’s a struck bottom tool…

No Billy it goes on TOP, making it a Top tool.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jobtiel1]

In terms of naming of forging tools, I like that there is a lot of overlap with English and Dutch names, a set hammer is called a "zethamer" in Dutch, a fuller is a "vulder", and a punch a "pons". interestingly, a flatter is called a "vlakhamer" which translates to flat hammer.

~Jobtiel

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

8 hours ago, Frosty said:

No Billy it goes on TOP, making it a Top tool.

Lol, your right Jerry! 

I got it backwards, it’s below the hammer but above the work so it threw me off,

but now you got me wondering…

if I’m using a bottom fuller.. with the work piece on top of it.. then have a fuller on top of the work piece.. then striking the upper fuller with a hammer,

then do I have two top tools an one bottom?  Lol

[Frosty]

No, the hammer you swing isn't part of the terminology re. top or bottom tooling, it's taken for granted. However using a top tool over a bottom tool might be called "closed" fullering as in an "adverb" describing how you're doing the work. Like a closed die or spring fuller. 

The English language is a melting pot with donors from all over the planet. Bungalow for example is an Indian word. The Nederlands are REALLY close neighbors so Dutch contributions are no surprise. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

The physical proximity between England and the Netherlands isn't as much of a factor as is the fact that both English and Dutch are close cousins within the West Germanic language family. There's an even closer relationship between English and West Frisian, the language with the greatest similarity to Old English/Anglo-Saxon.

[George N. M.]

John, during WW2 British soldiers from Northumberland and Yorkshire could roughly communicate with the Frisians in the Northern Netherlands.

GNM