New Blacksmith: Having trouble with metal breaking...Cold Shuts?

[MahLahChee]

Hello blacksmith community! I have just gotten into blacksmithing with a focus on making knives. To start out, I tried making a few leaves out of mild round stock (1/2"). I started by angling the front to a point on all sides and then creating shoulders a half inch away from the front on two sides. I then created two more shoulders on opposite sides about a half inch away from the first set. The issue I run into is at the first set of shoulders. I beleive when I am working my piece, I bend this point back and forth enough that it cracks and eventually breaks. Does anyone know what might be going on specifically (maybe cold shuts) and how I might prevent this? I am extremely inexperienced in blacksmithing, so it very well could be something as simple as me not holding my workpiece right. I had the same issue at the base of the tang of a small knife I attempted as well. (Both cases I tried to fix by welding once the crack was well formed, but that definately created cold shuts and looked terrible)

Thank you!

-MahLahChee

[Glenn]

What is the color of the metal when you work with it?  Both when you first start working and when you stop and reheat the metal?  Photos of the project would be a great help.

[dickb]

First guess, but only a guess, is the work was not hot enough. 

Heat the iron until it's a nice bright orange before hammering and stop hammering when it cools to cherry red. 

Then heat it up again.

You can avoid endless disappointment / discouragement by watching a few basic videos on Youtube or by finding a local blacksmith and watching him. 

[ThomasPowers]

Overheating---burning, underheating---not soft enough, too much scaling.  Why starting with knives can be so frustrating when you don't have temperature control, hammer control, etc down pat.

Also beware of "practicing" on mild steel.  You can do things with mild that will ruin high carbon alloys and so practice bad habits!

I suggest students get a lightly used, or unused, auto coil spring and cut along a diameter to get a dozen to a score "(" pieces and work those so they will all be the same alloy and take the same temps and heat treating and you can break test them to see how you are doing!  (And if you luck out and make a nice one; it's a decent blade alloy so you can finish it off and have a *knife*!

[BillyBones]

Welcome aboard. Suprised no one has said this yet, but go to the thread that says "READ THIS FIRST" and read it. It will familiarize you with community etiquette and the do's and dont's here. Also a general location in your header is a good idea, not specific address or anything unless you want a bunch of dirty smiths coming over drinking all your beer and leaving the toilet seat up.  You may be surprised how many of us are quite close to you. If you are near Dayton there is an open invite to all my IFI friends to come over and play in the fire. 

Pics of the project would help greatly, and we love pics. Are you quenching it while working on it? I ask becuase i have had S hooks form small cracks from quenching them while working on them, or at least that is what i have deduced was causing the cracks. That was in a piece of box store steel from like Lowes or Home Depot would carry. 

Anyway, again welcome to the forum. Make beautiful things and show them off. Have fun and stay safe. 

[Gazz]

Nobody has asked if you are working with wrought iron which needs to be worked at high or yellow heat.  It is different from readily available steel.  Where did you get your metal from?

[Chad J.]

Knives seem to be the gateway right now.  Odds are a combination of hammer and heat.  How is your hammer dressed?  Sharp edges are very bad.   What are you using for an anvil?  Are the edges crisp or rounded?  If you're getting cold shuts and your working temp is good this is possibly the reason. 

As a bit of advice; make S hooks.   Make them until you're sick of them and then make 50 more.   They are great for learning hammer control, how to use the anvil,'s work face,  and they're handy around the shop.  I've got them everywhere with anything I can hung upp on them. 

[MahLahChee]

Thank you ALL for your numerous responses! After doing some research after posting, I beleieve it was my heat that was my issue.

On 12/28/2021 at 1:43 AM, Glenn said:

What is the color of the metal when you work with it?  Both when you first start working and when you stop and reheat the metal?

I brought the metal up to a deep orange (my cheap gas forge only gets up to a bright orange) and then stoppep hammering once the heat glow dissapreaed (once the steel was grey again and I saw no red)

so thanks for the tip Glenn and Dickb!

ThomasPowers: I bought some high carbon steel but I'm scared to work it and destroy my steel. Where might I get some old auto springs? Are they very expensive at pick n pulls?

BillyBones: I took a look at the readfirst page, and I do apologize for not digging around before I posted this question. I know very little about balcksmithing as it is, so I'm sure some further research would do me good. 

On 12/28/2021 at 8:32 AM, BillyBones said:

Are you quenching it while working on it?

I am not quenching, I know a little about the effects of heat treating steels and doing such would make my steel more brittle, right?

11 hours ago, Gazz said:

Where did you get your metal from?

I got some 1/2" round stock from home depot, but I just found my steel recycle plant sells scrap for much cheaper

4 hours ago, Chad J. said:

How is your hammer dressed?  Sharp edges are very bad.   What are you using for an anvil?  Are the edges crisp or rounded? 

I have a small ball peen hammer and a 3 lb cross peen hammer (the latter from harbor freight which I rounded and tightened up the handle fit on)

My anvil is a 18" section of railroad rail turned upsidedown and clamped into a vise on my welding table. The edges on that are reasonably crisp

 

Overall I think that I'm not working with enough heat and I need to be careful not to actuate and make hinges that bend back and forth to form cracks in my peice.

Also: would it be better to use the flat bottom of my rail or the rounded top as my anvil surface? Would you guys reccomend something different for an anvil (besides of course shelling out the cold hard cash for a real anvil)?

One more thing: It seems you guys like to run a tight ship around here, should I make any alterations to my post formatting (as this IS a little messy)?

Thank you all for the help, resources, and warm welcome!

[ThomasPowers]

Springs sold as parts are much more expensive than springs sold as scrap metal.  Places to find them are scrapyards, places that do lift and lowers on vehicles and so replace the springs but do NOT reuse the springs they take off, buying drops from places that do spring repair,  Shade Tree mechanics, etc and so on.  I get springs at my local junkyard and have found spring with so little wear that they still have paper tags attached and readable.

What you DON'T want are old springs that have metal fatigue and so may have micro cracking already started!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

53 minutes ago, MahLahChee said:

should I make any alterations to my post formatting

Nope, that would definitely get the attention of a moderator and probably a warning. Ask me how I know.

[Daswulf]

55 minutes ago, MahLahChee said:

railroad rail turned upsidedown and clamped into a vise on my welding table

Are you using the thin part that lays flat on the tie beams "the foot"? You will get much more efficient hammering using it stood on end and hammering on the section the train wheels ride on "the head cross section". The "webbing"  and "foot" have little mass that you would want in an anvil. With it stood on end they could be shaped as a fuller or hot cut and be useful that way. 

[Glenn]

The photo shows a RR rail, a 2 pound hammer, and a piece of 1/2 inch round bar.  There is plenty of area to work the 1/2 inch round bar on the end of the rr track. When standing on end the mass of the rr track is directly under the hammer, which is where you want it to be.  

[MahLahChee]

5 hours ago, Daswulf said:

You will get much more efficient hammering using it stood on end and hammering on the section the train wheels ride on "the head cross section"

Alright, I'll flip my track over to be hammering on the top part (the part the wheels ride on).

When I oriented my track with the foot up, I figured that a larger, flatter surface area would be better. Will the rounded portion of the top not effect me negatively?

Also, should I round the edges of my track where it was cut so it's not such a sharp edge? I've been reading that it's better to have a radius on the edges of your anvil, but it's not too clear why...

Thanks for your guys' help and input

-M

 

[George N. M.]

Actually, I have found that the best way to use a piece of railroad track as an anvil is on end.  You strike on the end of the top of the rail.  This puts the greatest mass under the force of the blow.  The one downside is if the rail has been cut with a torch and the end is sort of ragged.  It takes a bit of effort to smooth it off and get the end at 90 degrees to the length.  The top of the rail works OK but the end works better.

A sharp edge on an anvil has a tendency to cut into the bottom of a work piece when you are bending it over the edge.  This is not something you want.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[lary]

 

Kind of like this? I'm a amazed at how solid an anvil this turned out to be. An 18 inch section might be to long. I have rounded the center web since taking the picture.

[Glenn]

You can put the 18 inch rr track on its side on a bench and use all the inside and outside curves as a swage.

[dickb]

You can get plenty of brand new mild steel from shops that make gates and fences at little or no cost. Just explain that you are a new blacismith and ask if they have any  lengths that are too short for them to use . You can also get automobile coil  springs from any shop that repairs/replaces suspensions . Try to find some that don't look too crusty. These coil springs can be heat treated, but for the beginner, don't bother. They are great for learning and practice, and the price is right. (usually free)

Finally, you might get the gas forge hotter by partially blocking the front opening. Get some advise from these forums as to how to do this safely.

 

[BillyBones]

No need for apologies, I think we all get told to READ THIS FIRST. I was told when  i first joined here to get a cold beverage, a sandwich and some snacks and start reading. Good advice. There is so much information here it can be quite overwhelming at times. 

There will be times when you will want to quench your metal while working it. Like if you are making an S hook with little pig tails you may want to quench them to keep from deforming them when you bend the hook. I am no bladesmith so i will not get into the science behind heat treating but i do know this, A-36 (which from my experience is what the box stores carry) can harden. Not that it will, but can. Like rebar, some of it will harden some wont... on the same stick of metal. 

If you have a steel recycler that will sell to you they should also have springs. I would try them before a pick-n-pull place. Springs are not the only places in vehicles using "good" steel. Axles, sway bars, CV shafts, etc. are also. When i worked in a tranny shop we had piles of them laying around along with transfer chains, bearings and races, input and output shafts, etc.

One thing i must mention about auto shops, it will be up to the owner as to what they do with the scrap. I worked for one guy who could not get rid of it fast enough while another guy i worked for thought it was gold and wanted top dollar. If you go to one place and they say no do not get discouraged. Also a nice bottle opener made from a wrench or a dozen doughnuts will get you in with them. 

[JHCC]

9 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Actually, I have found that the best way to use a piece of railroad track as an anvil is on end. 

3 hours ago, Glenn said:

You can put the 18 inch rr track on its side on a bench and use all the inside and outside curves as a swage.

Take a look at the stand in THIS COMMENT of the "Improvised Anvils" thread; it shows a stand I built for a RR track anvil (for my students) that allows the chunk of track to be stood on either end or laid down on its side.

45 minutes ago, BillyBones said:

Also a nice bottle opener made from a wrench or a dozen doughnuts will get you in with them. 

In my experience, it's extremely difficult to make a bottle opener from a single doughnut, let alone a dozen.

[ThomasPowers]

John did you try forge welding the doughnuts to get solid stock?

MahLahChee:  The hammer interacts with all the metal in the anvil between the top and the bottom.  Using the top of the anvil gives you 4 inches or so. Standing it upright can give you *feet*!   This is the same reason that I beam makes TERRIBLE anvils, The I beam may be huge and heavy but most of the steel between the face and the base is still only an inch or so!  I use simple rectangular solids for my improvised anvils, just like have been used for thousands of years.  I get mine for 20 UScents a pound for STEEL at my local scrapyard; so a good 80# STEEL starter anvil is US$16.

Here is a picture of my Y1K style anvils I use for historical  demo's.  It's based on one in the Roman Museum in Bath England; but similar ones can be found from almost all of the last two millennia! (It's on it's side to show the spike that goes into the stump to hold it.)

 

[Chad J.]

Definitely don't try it with jelly doughnuts

[ThomasPowers]

Self Fluxing!

[BillyBones]

I have had a couple doughnuts sit around for a couple days you could have used for a hammer though.

[ThomasPowers]

Bad memory or massive amounts of self control?

[MahLahChee]

1 hour ago, JHCC said:

Take a look at the stand in THIS COMMENT of the "Improvised Anvils" thread; it shows a stand I built for a RR track anvil (for my students) that allows the chunk of track to be stood on either end or laid down on its side.

I'll definately be building that RR anvil with the (I assume) hot cut wedge and horn built in with the stand and all. Seems perfect!

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I get mine for 20 UScents a pound for STEEL at my local scrapyard; so a good 80# STEEL starter anvil is US$16.

I also know the guys at my local scrap yard pretty well now, so they're looking out for an anvil for me, so I might get lucky!

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Bad memory or massive amounts of self control?

From my experience, when you're really focused on a project, even the best of snacks goes stale.