Value/Condition of 160# Trenton Anvil?

[ToMang07]

Looking at purchasing my first Anvil,  and I'm truthfully blown away at the cost of them.

I'm looking to start out Blacksmithing,  with a focus on blades,  although not exclusively.

This Anvil seems to be the best in my area, but I'm not entirely sure on condition or value.

I appreciate the input!

[Glenn]

Anvil Substitutes

Finding an anvil

[ThomasPowers]

I get improvised anvils for 20 UScents a pound at my local scrap yard.  Why do you think you have to have a London pattern anvil to forge blades on?  A cube like solid chunk of steel is close to what swords have been forged on for 3000 years---look at the National Geographic Special on "Living Treasures of Japan", the section on the japanese master sword smith forging a sword. The London Pattern anvil has been around for about 300 years and was used is a subset of the world, (the UK and UK influenced parts). Even Europe used different anvils.

Please check out 

Also please remember that this is an International forum, prices can differ even in a single country much less in places like Australia, (more expensive) and England, (less expensive).  I usually give prices in quatloos when people don't mention where they are at.

[ToMang07]

I've filled in my location info. 

Outside of that.... sure,  I could use a rock to forge on. 

But I'm not asking for alternative anvils,  I'm looking at a specific anvil;  it's condition and value. 

[ThomasPowers]

I'm sorry I was working off what you said: "Looking at purchasing my first Anvil,  and I'm truthfully blown away at the cost of them." It seemed like you could use a lower cost option.

For location specific prices I would contact the local ABANA affiliate; myself I would not advise anything above US$4-5 a pound because of the wear; but some locations have outrageous prices and some places the outrageous priced anvils don't sell at that price. I've seen people advertising anvils for US$7 a pound out here; but when I recently sold a 248 Peter Wright I sold it for $4 a pound.

What are the ball bearing test values for it? (Like checking the compression on a used car's engine.) Also, what are the results of the ring test?  (Like checking a used car for evidence of a prior accident.)

[Frosty]

Can't tell much about the condition of the face from the pics. Have you done a rebound test? If not, anybody rendering an opinion on it's condition would be guessing fwiw. 

What's it worth to you? Asking and sale price are two different things. 

Did someone suggest you use a rock? What does linear extrapolation do to get you help? You can do much better if you unpaint yourself from the "London Pattern = real" anvil corner.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ToMang07]

2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

What are the ball bearing test values for it?

Haven't had a chance to ring it yet,  truthfully the only concerns I have are size (big enough?)  and the swayback on it.  I've read mixed conclusions whether it's a problem or not, some claim any will make crafting blades difficult,  some claim they prefer it. 

Far as value,  most articles I read were 5-10  years old and were pretty consistent in the $3-5/lb range.  So finding the majority in the $6-9/lb range was a bit of a shock,  and I've seen some in VERY rough shape,  no hardy hole, etc over $10/lb... so that's why I'm here. 

As far as local support,  I tried contacting a local Smith/guild, but haven't gotten any responses as of this posting.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

What's it worth to you? Asking and sale price are two different things. 

I'm not stuck on any pattern.  I'm shopping what's available in my area,  because I won't buy anything used if I can't see it first. And I know shipping one would be insanely expensive. But I'm looking for an anvil,  not an anvil substitute.

What I'm looking for is a good face with a pritchet hole and a hardy hole,  a shelf for cutting/punching, and a horn for shaping.  Beyond that.... it's all Chinese to me. 

That said.... I'm a big guy known to be aggressive when working... so I figure trying to get as close to 200lbs as I can.  Space/ weight isn't a factor,  I have a large garage. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Will-I-am]

Get a metal ball bearing and tape measure, if you get 75% from the rebound test then offer $2.30/lb.  If they refuse the offer, then go buy a 136lb chinese steel anvil new for same price.  I could not find any used anvils in my area and am happy with my chinese anvil.  I started hammering ambidexterous and using the anvil rebound to do most of the work.

[ThomasPowers]

How big is it?  Weight that is. 

A standard sized anvil in a commercial shop anvil back 140 years ago was generally around 165#. As modern hobbyist blacksmiths suffer terribly from "Anvil Envy" many of us have "heavy industry" sized anvils in our shops, (blushing and waving a hand...).  I personally prefer to not go under about 90# for everything but Early Medieval Demos when I use a 25# anvil based on the carvings from a stave church and a Roman example from a museum. Using real wrought iron that is worked extremely hot and so is extremely soft under the hammer helps make up the weight difference.

Will has an excellent suggestion about buying a modern cast STEEL anvil, (NOT cast iron!).

[ToMang07]

160 Pounds according to the seller,  looks about right but again,  based off pictures. 

Personally....I try not to buy anything made in China. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[Frosty]

If you have to have a: horn, pritchel, hardy and shelf then you most certainly are stuck on a pattern. Using the shelf for cutting is generally considered anvil abuse anymore. A cutting plate that lays on the anvil serves and being roomier is much ore versatile. Same for a pritchel hole, a bolster plate that lays on the anvil does exactly what the pritchel does but you can drill different size holes for better, cleaner results. A better tool than a pritchel. 

A hardy hole is indeed handy though bottom tools work just vine in a vise or portable hole. 

What can you form over a horn you can't form on the face or over a bottom fuller? After close to 40 years working on my go to anvil I rarely have a use for the horn other than as a bottom fuller, once in a while I'll true up a ring if I'm in a hurry.

My go to anvil is a 125lb. Soderfors and I only use my 206lb Trenton for bending large stock, visitors are drawn to it and it's a fine anvil, just not my favorite.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ToMang07]

Funny you say that.... my #2 local choice is a JHM 125lb, but I was worried it was too small.

Well if I'm "stuck on a pattern" then It's all I've ever seen.  Every single anvil I have ever seen has some sort of rectangle working face and a horn or heel on it.  Some have shelves,  holes,  etc, some don't.  But as far as that specific shape.... new or used,  never seen anything else.

But again,  shopping what's available and trying to make an informed decision.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[pnut]

Either anvil would be fine as far as size goes for about anything. The 125 pound anvil is about as small as would be considered an all around shop anvil and there's nothing Short of industrial forgings you couldn't forge on the 165 pound anvil but after you get past five bucks a pound you're getting closer to the price of a new anvil. Have you considered buying new? 

Pnut

[ToMang07]

I have,  but the closest shop I have found so far that sells them is 5ish hours away,  and shipping is expensive as all xxxx from what I've seen.  If I go that route,  I'll have to save up some more and probably make a road trip out of it. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mod30
Language and quoting

[ThomasPowers]

That JHM is a farrier's pattern. Check the sweet spot on both of them.  That's the section of the face where there is metal all the way to the base.  As a bladesmith that's where 80% of you hammering should occur.  Wasp waisted anvils have smaller sweet spots than other types.  (Compare that JHM with a mousehole to see the difference very clearly!)  Then compare with the NIMBA anvils that are designed off the Italian pattern anvil.)  Remember it's the skill of the user over the cost of the anvil. You will be a better bladesmith with 1000 hours of forging on a US$100 anvil than 100 hours of forging on a US$1000 anvil.

When teaching I sometimes take a piece of chalk and mark the sweet spot on my anvils when the students keep wanting to do heavy hammering out on the heel.

[Frosty]

Ditto pnut, asking prices for anvils since forged in fire made bladesmithing popular has really driven up the price of used. There's a myth that an old anvil is somehow better than a new one, some are but it's not a reliable standard to judge. Jhm is a fine modern anvil and the face looks pretty decent.

If your focus is going to be blades condition is more important than size, my 125lb anvil on a steel tripod stand doesn't bounce or move around under some heavy hammering. Thinking about it just now I realized I do use the pritchel hole for hold fasts. There are other hold fasts than the old type similar in function to what you see on a cabinet maker's bench.

Frosty The Lucky.

[FlatLiner]

I have three london pattern anvils. The smallest at 45 lbs is truncated, the heel was broken off. My boys have used a 16lb sledge on it with no detriment to the anvil. I have three diy anvils that I use for my heavy sledging. One is a 5" x5" x7" block of annealed s7 at 65 lbs, anouther is a 5" x20" round hydraulic hammer head from an oil drill about 120 lbs s5 steel, the final one is two forks off a forklift that have been cut and welded back to back its dimensions are 4"x 8"x25" weighing in at about 230 lbs they are supposed to be 4140 or 4340 or something similar. They all move metal without difficulty. I paid less for all of my diy anvils put together then I did for one of my london pattern anvils. 

[ThomasPowers]

The Farrier pattern additions are great for ornamental work---like turning cams for scrolling.

[Chelonian]

Here's an 8" long piece of 6" round mild steel that's a great anvil (~70lbs). I welded on a small horn and heel, but if you're planning on making knives there's not much need for that. I've used it a for a while and despite being mild steel it holds up just fine. If this were my main anvil I would have made the heel and horn heavier duty, but I made this more to act as a nice solid bick and bridge tool.

And if for no other reason, starting with a block-of-steel anvil will let you learn hammer control on a much less expensive anvil. While learning, if you put dents in a block of steel you can just grind them out, but if you put dents or chips in a nice old anvil with a steel face, you pretty much have to live with them for a very long time. I would really suggest you take the advise of the members above with years and years of experience who are trying to help you here.

[anvil]

If it is a trenton and the edges and face are as good as they look, you are looking at a very good anvil.

I'd guess it's priced reasonable for your area. If you are looking for an anvil and have the money, you could do a lot worse. I'd go for it.

Money comes and money goes, but anvils are forever. 

[BsnNFrnt]

Much like Chelonian and a few others stated, a large piece of steel that is harder than hot steel will work just fine in the interim. Practice your craft and your anvil needs will become more clear - followed by the patience to find the right equipment.  

I made this one out of a 5&1/2” pump plunger and some careful welding. 
 

[rustyanchor]

On 3/4/2021 at 11:42 AM, ToMang07 said:

I have,  but the closest shop I have found so far that sells them is 5ish hours away,  and shipping is expensive as all xxxx from what I've seen.  If I go that route,  I'll have to save up some more and probably make a road trip out of it. 

If you were looking at a nice car, new or used, would you be willing to do a 5 hour drive, knowing that you would never have to buy another car in your lifetime? If it takes you time to save up for it, so be it. Find an improvised anvil until you have saved up. You may figure out that you can accomplish everything you want to do on an improvised anvil and don't really need a London pattern anvil You may stumble across another anvil you can afford while you are saving up. 

Try using TPAAP, and visit any likely anvil hibernation place. It is easy to look for anvils on the web, and you pay the price for convenience. The anvil you are looking for is sitting in the corner of a barn or garage, or in a junk shop, waiting for you to rescue it. (My first anvil was sitting on a pallet with a forge and hand crank blower at a feed store in NC wearing a horrid coat of yellow paint, I was with a neighbor looking at a fertilizer spreader on a Sunday, when I found a pallet of yellow anvil etc. in front of the fertilizer spreader.)

An anvil can be a 'Buy a good one and never need to replace it' investment. You may want to add more anvils in the future, but you should not be able to wear out an anvil. (Yes you can destroy an anvil, burn it, attack it with a torch, grind thru the hardened face, beat the snot out of it with a big sledge, etc. etc.) Industrial shops, I'm sure, wore anvils out, but hobbyists? With reasonable care, it will be around long after we are gone.

My .02, which is worth every penny you paid for it!

P.S. The Trenton you initially posted looks like one of the early imported Trentons, for what it's worth. Doesn't make it anymore valuable, but an interesting side note. I may be wrong, but I think it, so I say it.

Edited March 6, 2021 by rustyanchor
added a pic.