White Nomad Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 So my question is, if I were to heat a piece of steel to a glowing yellow and then stick it in kaowool so that the whole piece is covered, would that slow down the cooling enough for the steel to be properly annealed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 while it slowly kills you? not a good idea to mess with unsealed ceramic wool. Use ashes or vermiculite, its much safer and has been used for years safely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 What alloy? D2, A2? Nope never for those alloys! How large a piece of steel? Knife blade thicknesses usually need a thicker "helper" to slow the cooling down. What's the ambient temperature in your shop? -20, +20 C, F or K? How thick of kaowool? So far this question is much like: "I have a container of water, if I pour it into this glass will it overflow?" Can you see how difficult answering such a question can be without all the details? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 And yellow is too hot for heat treating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 White Nomad, A bucket of 'Garden Lime' or powdered lime, works well for annealing. No toxic anything. Works good for Fire Welding Flux, too. Lime is the flux in making Steel. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Nomad Posted February 23, 2021 Author Share Posted February 23, 2021 At the moment I use a bucket of clay, but I also have powdered lime so I might use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 The problem would be with the fibers you knock loose from the kaowool becoming airborne. There's so many other things to use it's not worth it. I use wood ash now that I have collected enough but I've also used unscented kitty litter to good effect and plain old dried and pulverized clay I dug out of the ground. Find a metal ammo can or old toolbox and start saving wood ash in it or buy a bag of vermiculite at the garden center. It's that time of year when the box stores are preparing for spring in my neck of the woods so it's already stacked up outside of Walmart. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 The short answer is Yes, it will work for any steel that you would otherwise anneal by burying it in ash, lime, vermiculite, and so on (although as noted above, yellow is hotter than necessary). One of my smithing mentors does this all the time, often adding an appropriately sized bar of mild steel heated to the same temperature as workpiece to slow down the cooling rate even more. The safety issue is non-trivial, but we do have to keep in mind that there is a BIG difference between (a) loose fibers becoming airborne after being subjected to the heat of the forge and blasted out into the air by a gas burner and (b) loose fibers that happen to detach from a kaowool blanket at room temperature. The former behave a lot more like asbestos and pose a much higher risk than the latter. I know that others here may disagree with me on this, but I think that we sometimes overstate the risks of kaowool and ascribe the worst-case effects to ALL possible situations. While plain kaowool fibers can cause silicosis or even cancer with repeated long-term exposure, they are not toxic and not nearly as dangerous as asbestos. Outside the extreme environment of a gas forge and with appropriate precautions (dust mask, etc), I personally don't consider this usage to be significantly unsafe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 you are forgetting its not just operating temps, in his annealing scenario he is also stirring up the fibers, that does not happen in a forge, so I fear you have a very different idea of what is unsafe than most of us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Steve, how do you mean "stirring up the fibers"? I don't think he's talking about sticking a piece into a bin full of shredded kaowool, but putting it between two layers of blanket. The first would certainly be dangerous, as both the shredding and the sticking would release fibers into the air, but the second wouldn't -- or at least, not nearly as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 every time he lifts that blanket it puts more fibers into the air Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 While I agree with John that this isn't the use case for ceramic blanket that poses the most risk, it's kind of a moot point given the numerous other (much safer) options that are available for annealing that have already been given above. Like many risks, it's a roll of the dice whether or not one has adverse reactions to some degree or another. And the probability goes up with the amount of exposure you get. I guess the question is why roll those particular dice at all if you don't have to. Even if the odds everything will be fine are arguably in your favor. Using ceramic blanket would work, but it seems like more of a hassle to me to put on my respirator and be all careful when I could just as easily bury the steel in a bucket of vermiculite and call it a day. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Nomad Posted February 24, 2021 Author Share Posted February 24, 2021 So the thought came from hearing about how glassworkers would sit their work in fiberglass insulation or something like that to slow down the cooling process to prevent the work from cracking from uneven cooling. I don't know how true this is but that's how I had the idea to use kaowool. I think I'll just make a wood ash and lime powder bend to anneal my work pieces in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 IFI member Latticino could probably speak to that, as he has been a professional glassblower (and currently works as an HVAC engineer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 Good Morning W.Nomad, Thomas Powers asked you a question yesterday, I haven't seen a reply. "What material are you working with? D2, A2, W1, H13, S7, LMNOP? They all have very different Heat Treating characteristics. It is not a case of guessing and hoping you have it right. To Care for what you are building, YOU have to care enough to KNOW what you are working with. Junk Yard Dog material doesn't set a consistent base-line. You are concerned about Annealling, Why?? Different material Anneals at different procedures. Does it need to be annealed or are you just rowing the boat? Row, Row, Row the boat, gently down.........LOL Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Nomad Posted March 11, 2021 Author Share Posted March 11, 2021 Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy. The most accurate I can get with the classification is that it's mild steel, and quenches pretty well in water. If there is another way I can find out specifically what I'm working with using some method at home, do let me know. I'm asking into annealing for these materials because I hand file everything given that I'm only just learning how to effectively use my bench sander/grinder, and it would be easier and quicker if the material were softer, and for the bench sander, I figured a softer material would make the belts last longer. I also would just like to learn about the process and whether using kaowool would have been viable (I know it's not now, instead I use lime powder), so that in the future if I had to anneal, I knew what I was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 What do you mean by it quenches well in water? there isnt much to anneal with mild steel, as by definition, it doesnt harden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 11, 2021 Share Posted March 11, 2021 Yes a definition of very mild steel is that quenching it in water doesn't do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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