Chris C Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I know I've been around for a year now, but have just really started forging in the last month or so. I think I have my Dog's Head hammer ready to punch and drift for a handle. But I learned quickly in the process of forging the shape, neither of my two pair of tongs will hold the blank and certainly not solid enough to drift. I don't have any kind of hold downs. What would be the easiest and most secure way to hold that hammer head to punch and drift a hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 A chain secured to one side of the anvil, over the top of the anvil, and attached to a weight on the other side will work for some projects. If you need more force then attach the over the top side to a foot lever. The more pressure you apply, the harder it holds. Bicycle or motor chain is a place to start. Small links in other chain work better than larger links. Make a 7 shape from flat bar or round bar to fit into the hardie hole. Put a round hold for a hook in the long end going through the hardie hole. Add a S hook and a piece of chain to go to the foot lever. The more pressure you apply, the harder it holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 Great suggestions, Glenn. Am aware of all those. However the head of this hammer is only 3" long at this point and I need to forge it out longer so I can punch and drift the handle hole. I think I'm going to weld a rod to the heel of the head and use the rod to hold it whilst I hammer. Then I can cut the rod off after I stretch, punch and drift. I came to that decision about 2 hours ago when someone from another forum said that's what he does in this situation. (didn't want you to think I'd come up with the idea on my own.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheechWizard Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 how will you hold the punch or drift of you're holding the thing needing to be punched? ive made a dogs head hammer before, is it because of the off center eye that makes it to hard to just punch it without any kind of hold down device? or are you using a treadle hammer or something? sorry for all the questions im just confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 14, 2020 Author Share Posted June 14, 2020 No need to apologize for asking a question. No power/treadle hammers in my shop. I'm swinging a hand-held hammer for now..............and more than likely forever. I'll have to hold onto the rod I weld onto the butt of the hammer head with tongs held between my knees and the punch/drift in my off-hammer hand. Is it the best method? Probably not. Do I have someone to hold it for me while I hammer? Do I have a sledge hammer serf? Nope. I'm all by my lonesome here, but lots of smiths work alone. Jennifer makes plenty of hammer heads (without a power hammer) by her self, as I imagine do a lot of smiths. I'm trying to find a work around to be able to do this myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Find a piece of tubing that the hammer head can fit into. Drill two holes and weld a nut over the holes so a bolt can be used to hold the hammer head in place. That will become the holding device for the hammer head. You can make a guillotine fuller or spring fuller to hold the punch if needed. You could even make a punch guide that attaches to the tubing. It is all about making something that works. Remember to use punch lube, hit 3 times, then cool the punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Thanks, Glenn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheechWizard Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 i meant to say ive never made a dogs head hammer* i've only made one hammer and did it with the piece loose under my punch, when doing it this way you can easily keep your piece rotating and flipping it over so you get an evenly shaped eye, however i punch first and forged everything else after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 If you do weld on the hammer head in posse---make sure you do the correct preheat and post cool as you DON'T want any HAZ cracks! When I am incising all 4 sides of a piece of 1/2" sq stock to make a fancy twist in it I have found that: I can generally get two hammer blows before it drops to the floor with nothing holding it. With a person holding it I can usually get an entire side incised in one heat and with the chain/foot bar I can usually do a side in two heats. So it's usually the chain for me in my smithy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Yep, Thomas, I figured I'd need to pre-heat the head................but the question I asked a friend on another forum was "how hot". Haven't heard back from him. So what say you? Should I toss it in the gasser and get it good and hot.......like to a dark, dark red? Or should I just warm it with a torch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 As always it depends on the alloy. Basically you don't want to form untempered martensite from contact quenching. So one number to try would be a good high tempering temperature as you will be reheat treating it later. As I recall the Gunther/Schuler anvil repair method suggests 400 degF preheat to repair weld on a steel face; so that's a place to start. If I get a chance tonight I can look in my Lincoln Electric welding manual and see what they advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Just as a general point of interest concerning hold downs: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52504-motorcycle-chain-holddown/ and: site:iforgeiron.com hold down site:iforgeiron.com hold fast until one throws one across ones anvil, it is difficult to appreciate the utility of this tool. Mine employs a foot stirrup. I did a mock up from what I had lying about, and it works so well, I have yet to finish it. We can not have our hot work spitting themselves out from under our hammer blows....... Robert Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 57 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: As I recall the Gunther/Schuler anvil repair method suggests 400 degF preheat to repair weld on a steel face; so that's a place to start. My friend on the blade smithing forum says 400 degrees also. Not quite sure how to measure that on a piece of steel the size of a hammer head, but I guess I'll just wing it. 37 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said: https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/52504-motorcycle-chain-holddown/ Yup, a motorcycle chain hold down is in my future..............but this hammer head is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Ever judged the heat of a griddle for pancakes? Close! (Welders often use Tempilstiks to tell them it's at a proper temperature.) My chain hold down has a section of 1/2" sq stock on the end rather than a stirrup. I like to have both feet on the ground when I'm hammering and so the bar lays on the ground at an angle to allow me to step on it with my heel on the ground. (The length of chain is adjustable; but generally stays at "under 1 inch stock" for my work.) I have also seen them with a spring on one end and hook on the other and a series of pegs to attach to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 34 minutes ago, Chris C said: My friend on the blade smithing forum says 400 degrees also. Not quite sure how to measure that on a piece of steel the size of a hammer head, temple sticks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Hmmmmm. Hadn't even thought of that, Steve. My Dad was a jeweler and I think I've seen him use something like that before. Any way, I heated it up with the rosebud on my Acetylene rig to a dull red and welded it. Took a whole stick to make sure it welded deep. It finally started getting loose on about the 10th heat. It's still connected, but I didn't want it to come flying off. I'll cut it off and repeat the process tomorrow. Got a fair amount done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Not going to quote you, Thomas because I don't seem to do anything right around here..........or at least that's what "my" mod implys. I say "my" because we are getting almost on a first name basis! I like the idea of the bar and not a stirrup. Will consider that when the time comes. (Now off to find a motorcycle chain.) Like I told Steve, I'd not heard of Templisticks before, but I might check into them. Makes sense. As far as checking the temp on the griddle.............I just wait until the light goes out at whatever temp the dial is set to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Your griddle is *not* cast iron and is *not* on an open flame? The horror! The horror! The shame...My wife liked some new brand of frying pans that were never supposed to be heated to more than warm to the touch as far as I could tell. I figured that the sun out here would cook the bacon faster and brought my cast iron skillets out of storage. She complained they were too heavy for her, (at 73 years old...), so I found her a hundred year old Erie cast iron skillet, half the weight of a "modern" cast iron skillet. It gets a lot of use; more use than her fancy new ones in fact. We also have a propane kitchen range, only thing propane that is not in the smithy. I think that tempilstik is the brand name often corrupted as temple sticks which are incense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 As regards the OP question for holding the hammer stock during punching: You may want to watch a master hammer maker hand punch the hammer eye in one of his punches (actually he doesn't really punch it as no "biscut" is produced, he uses a slitting chisel but essentially it is the same process: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 Tempilstic/temple stick. You're a hoot, Thomas. The only incense I like is what I purchase when on trips to CO and points West..................Pinon Incense. Thanks, Latticino. I've watched all of Brent's videos. Fun/educational to watch a pro at work. My problem was the hammer head is too large for any of my holding tools and was round. (Dog's Head Hammer) So I'm squaring up everything except the face...........or actually blending from a round face to a square head, if that makes sense. My Bolt Jaw tongs are set up for 5/8" and I didn't want to change them. When it comes time to punch and drift I'm not going to be worried about holding it. But right now I'm trying to lengthen the black by about an inch and I couldn't hold it while doing that. I'll get there. I'm just an unskilled newbie and am working slow. Just trying not to be stupid about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheechWizard Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 i say make some new tongs. its never a bad thing to have some big boys around the shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Haven't managed to make any tongs yet. Had to buy these because I was trying to make some tongs. Got these and haven't gotten back on the project yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donal Harris Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 Do you have one of the SCABA swage blocks or a v swage Hardy tool? Korney put the large bolt he helped me punch and drift in a v swage Hardy tool. He held the punch. I whacked it with a sledge until the slug came out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris C Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 No, Don, I haven't. No swage blocks, no Hardy tools to use as a stand in either. I need to just quit fooling around and spend several months making tongs, Hardy tools, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donal Harris Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 If you want to try a swage block, you can borrow mine. I never cleaned up all the mold lines, but it would let you find out if you even want one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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