How to hold it...........newbie question

[Chris C]

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass.  As I said, I need to get busy and start making some Hardy tools that will do some of the things I might need.  I never have seen the need to buy a 150 pound chunk of steel with about 10 times the number of slots and do-dads I'll probably never use.  I might as well make 8 or 10 Hardy tools that will meet my needs.  Besides, who knows, I just might learn something and further my skills!

[anvil]

As to your OP, you don't need a hold down to punch or slit and drift the eye of a hammer. 

[ThomasPowers]

And most swage blocks were not steel to boot!

[Chris C]

Anvil, the reason I "thought" I needed some sort of a hold-down was because I'd be punching in a round hammer head.  Now that I've squared the portion that will have the handle hole in it, I shouldn't have any problems.

 

[Benona blacksmith]

13 hours ago, Chris C said:

  I never have seen the need to buy a 150 pound chunk of steel with about 10 times the number of slots and do-dads I'll probably never use.

You would be amazed how universal and handy a swage block is. I have a 250 lb antique cast iron one and a 66 lb Holland anvil one. I prefer the Holland anvil one for most things as I had a miss blow on my cast grey iron one and hit my friend in the chest with the shrapnel from the cast iron. That's another reason I belive cast grey iron anvils should not be used. Cast ductile iron is okay for general smithing purposes on swage blocks and anvils. 

[ThomasPowers]

I use mine at least once a year---had it since around 1981!

[Chris C]

I probably should have explained more clearly why the "150 pound chunk of steel" was something I'd probably never use.   I'm certainly not putting anyone down who has one.  If I stumbled onto one in the woods, I'd probably bring it home and put it in the shop.........and like Thomas, use it maybe once a year.  My opinion has to do with my purpose for using a forge and anvil.  Yes, I want to learn how to use a hammer and yes, I want to learn how to make many of the things blacksmiths are renowned for making.  But my reason for owning a forge and anvil is to make knives.  I'm wanting to be a bladesmith.  I make wood carving knives and sheath knives.  With that in mind, I don't think it makes sense for me to have the typical 250 lb swage block, cones and a rack with 50 different pair of tongs and scrolling tools.  I fully understand why all those accessories are practically considered a requirement in a blacksmith's shop.  But my work doesn't require them often enough for the expense.  Sorry my statement was so generic. 

That said, I fully realize there are going to be times when I might need a bottom fuller or Hot Cut Hardy.............which is why I think it makes more sense to make Hardy Tools for those few specific needs.  I'm a newbie and admit I don't know everything, so I could be wrong on this, but that's my take on it at this point in my journey.

[ThomasPowers]

It is handy for "one-offs". If I do more than about 3 of an item I try to make/find an appropriate swage for one of my anvils.  Mine was sourced in the OKC region---Thrifty Nickle add for an anvil. I called then and they told me it was an odd shaped anvils with lots of different shapes around the edges.  I called my boss and told him I would be late and went out and bought it for a bit under US$1 a pound back then. I've moved it a lot of times (10?); but I expect it will be in this smithy until the estate sale.

I think that if I was doing a lot of ornamental work---like gates, trellis's, etc, I would use it more.  For knives I don't. (Though I do know knifemakers who use the V shapes for welding cable.)

[Chris C]

....................and I'd probably use a V-tool Hardy for welding cable, but wouldn't need a big swage block.  I see where they are a wonderful tool but I just don't think I'd use one much.

[ThomasPowers]

I think it's like having a full sized cone mandrel----if you need one you need one.  If you don't; it's a convenient but expensive place to place your coat and hat.

[Chris C]

yep!

 

I'm still on a quest to find a used motorcycle chain.  I need to stop by the Harley shop sometime soon.

[anvil]

On 6/16/2020 at 12:21 PM, Chris C said:

I'd probably use a V-tool

Use the same tool to punch/slit a hole in round stock. 

[Chris C]

Thanks, Anvil............I meant I'd use a V-tool to help forge weld steel cable.  Of course a bottom swage Hardy would help in a similar way, I'd think.

[Benona blacksmith]

I make hammers and axes and find all the different shaped holes to be extremely useful. For making knives not all that practical. I need to make a new stand for mine so I can use all the edge shapes. Right now it's just a down and dirty oak 4x4 stand. 

Back to the original question. You may find the first few initial blows to get the punch started can be a pain but once you have it started it's easy to keep the billet in place with the punch alone. But forging some flats like you did helps immensely. 

[Chris C]

Thanks.  This is my first hammer head and is as much a learning tool as it is a hammer.  Heck, it may not even end up as a useful hammer.  But I've been forced to change directions several times to get to where I am right now.  Hopefully I'll learn enough that when finished I'll have a nice hammer.  That remains to be seen!!!

[Frosty]

Man this has become over complicated! You can punch or slit  a hammer head easily without any kind of hold down though the chain is handy. Assuming you're using round stock, square wouldn't go anywhere. Heat the stock screaming hot mid yellow at least and lay it lengthwise on the anvil. If you have a flatter put on top of the stock as parallel with the anvil face as possible. If you don't have a flatter, a piece of reasonably thick 1/2"+ steel, welding on a handle is a good idea. Lay it parallel with the anvil's face. Give it a good hard smack with a hammer. Aim to hit directly on the center line of the stock. If you miss you'll have to pick it up. Pffft.

Do this full length and the round stock will a flat face on opposite sides. Not a wide one, no need to get carried away but it will be directly across the bar through the center. The bar will lay on the flat faces and let you work. 

If you have your dividers set you can scribe the hammer eye's position and center punch it on both sides and put it back in the forge.

If you have good hammer control you don't need a flatter but the above technique is easy and the results are positive. So you may have to pick up the stock once or twice. If that's a problem making a hammer isn't what you need to be doing yet.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chris C]

The only reason it's "over complicated", I think, is because I keep responding when people make suggestions.  I posted the picture of the Dog's Head hammer head in my first post and was trying to figure out how to hold the 2" face end of it when I didn't have large enough tongs.  Then I shortened the head by and inch (now 3" long) to get to the desired weight) which made holding even more difficult.  To meet that problem, I decided to "square" 2" of the heel and to extend it out another inch.  I'm not at all concerned as to how to punch the holes now............but helpful folks keep commenting and I keep responding.  Maybe I should just stop responding and it'll die out.................ya think?

On a side note a flatter would be nice to have.  Just didn't have the funds to buy one or the skills to make one.  Hadn't thought about just a flat plate with a steel handle welded to it.  Will look into that.

[Frosty]

That wasn't directed at you Chris, it'd just gotten carried away. It changed from how do I hold X to different ways to hold most anything. 

What works best for me is slitting and drifting the eye before I do anything else. 

You have more of that stock don't you? cut off maybe 2" and dress one end as the work face and the other as the struck face. No need to heat treat it or punch for a handle you can wrap it in round stock and give it a couple tiny tack welds to keep it in place. Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chris C]

Not completely sure what you are suggesting, Frosty.  Do you mean slide the round hammer blank into a round pipe and tack weld the two together?  What are you calling "round stock"?

[Donal Harris]

I primarily use my swage block as an anvil light enough to carry into the garage in the winter for working on copper. The only time I’ve ever used it for something like its intended use was when making a couple of bells from oilfield pipe.  It would probably be more useful if it didn’t have the shovel form taking up quite a lot of space on one side.

A much more useful swage block would seem to be one that has at least one square hole about the same size as my anvil’s Hardy hole. Many videos show someone hammering the end of the Hardy tool into the hole when fitting them. My anvil is only 97 or so pounds. I have always been worried I would break the heel off. Mouse holes have thick heels, but still. 

Another useful thing my SCABA swage block cannot be used for is disrupting the ends of round or square stock lengthwise. Yet another thing of no use to a bladesmith. :-)
 

I’ve never punched a hole in anything round that was so thick, but have seen it done in videos with a single smith doing it on an anvil with no swage tools of any kind. Just drill holes to help you punch straight. 

[Chris C]

Yeah, that "shovel form" was the first thing that turned me away from even considering the SCABA block.  I mean, seriously, unless you are in the business of making fireplace shovels, how often would you use it???

[ThomasPowers]

Fireplace tools were a big seller for smiths in the 1970's and 1980's and that probably helped speed up their production a lot! I'm amused by dishing forms on swage blocks; but then I have a couple dozen various freestanding  ones from SCA armour making.

[rockstar.esq]

Chris,

I believe Frosty is suggesting round stock to be used as a wire wrapped handle on a stubby flatter like you might see in use under power hammers.

Another idea that hasn't been presented yet is to drill three holes in line in the eye area of your stock to start with.  Splitting the connecting bits will go much, much, faster, and a properly shaped hot-cutting chisel will self-register against the sides of the holes so the result is straight.

From there, you could use a sequence of drifts to shape it.  I forget where I saw it, but there was a smith who focused on making hammers, axes, etc, who would make a sequence of drifts for shaping the eye.  Everything starts with one long piece of stock, which is tapered down to a point.  From there, they sawed that long tapered tool into 2" or 3" long segments.  A bit of grinding to round over the edges on each segment, and they ended up with four to five drifts that were used sequentially to get to the finished shape.  As memory serves, this smith went to the trouble of doing that twice so they'd have a pair of matching drifts for each incremental size.  

It doesn't get mentioned much, but heavy top tooling works against the solo smith.  Extra tool mass just adds inertia to overcome.  A solo smith using stubby top tooling will get more done.  The sequential drifts basically "drop in" and self-align on the slot.  When I first started out, I tried to make a tool that started as a slitting punch, and tapered up to an eye shape.  Dang thing was probably two pounds, and a foot long.  I made it out of an old Jackhammer bit.  It took me the better part of a day to punch/drift the hole.  I didn't have a bottom bolster, so I tried using my hardie hole for the drifting.  It took forever, and the darn drift was constantly getting stuck.  Worst of all was the way it'd wick heat out of the stock.  I gave myself a terrible case of blacksmiths elbow doing things the hard/wrong way.

A small drift will move faster when you hit it, which means you'll be able to knock it out sooner.  That smith I watched, had a quench bucket under their hardie hole, and a matched pair for each size of drift.  They'd knock the drift in with two blows, flip it over, and knock it through the hardie hole with it's reciprocal.  The whole process picks up speed as they progressed through the drifts.

One of the hardest lessons for me in Blacksmithing, is that it's often faster to spend time making proper tools, so the work turns out.  I blew out my elbow making stuff that I'm not happy with.

[Chris C]

Thanks, Rockstar.  At this point, I'm down to the weight I want for the hammer and don't think I'd want to lose the weight of drilling holes instead of punching and drifting..............but it's certainly something to try in the future.  I think I've seen the video you refer to.  The smith drilled two holes and punched out the center so he had everything lined up.  Made sense..........just didn't plant it in my mind and remember it.  Heck...............some days I can't even remember my own name.

[Donal Harris]

I am likely wrong, but I think Frosty meant cut off a piece of the same round stock you are making the head from and tack weld it to the side of your hammer blank. Then you no longer need worry about it rolling.