Jump to content
I Forge Iron
Jon Kerr

Vice repair- advice needed

Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, swedefiddle said:

Don't drill the bad hole with a Hand Drill, unless you want to make the problem worse. NEVER USE an E-ZE-OUT!!!!!

Hand drill usage depends upon level of skill, quality of equipment, not for everyone, I will give you that.

Not universally true. Screw extractors have been used successfully for years - I agree, Niel, that they CAN get folks in hot water. Trick is not to break it off.

Robert Taylor

Edited by Anachronist58
Post Assembly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Morning Robert,

I have to agree with you, except, I come from 40 years of having to repair all the "oops" that E-Ze-Out's have created. I am a firm believer that if someone who doesn't have a pile of patience is let loose with a E-Ze-Out, there is going to be a pile of cryin'. Better not to start the walk, than beg forgiveness, saying "I didn't know".

Just sayin'

Neil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New removeable jaws made by the workshop. I can dress them up with a grinder and then heat treat as appropriate.

20191205_100807.jpg

As for the "mangled" hole....  I have that half of the vice in the car boot with me. I'll have a go at lunchtime at drilling out the stuck bolt! At least now I can use the jaws as a guide for where the original hole was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, this escalated.... in a good way!

Took the vice into the workshop at lunchtime intending to use the pillar drill.

One of the chaps had a look and reckoned the hole was too mangled to stop it wandering. He offered to do it for me on the mill!

This turned out to be a lifesaver as there was something VERY hard stuck in the bottom of that hole. Even the milling machine with a carbide drill was NOT sounding very happy. Furthermore the hole hardly matched up to the measured holes in the jaws so wouldn't have fitted even if I'd been successful.

In the end, my mate succeeded in drilling the hole out in the correct position, and even tapped it for me.

Next step, get it home, get the other set of jaws on, and reassemble, then sort out a vice stand.

Very happy!

Thanks again for all your help and advice. I'd have probably done something silly and ended up in a far worse position.

20191205_122235.jpg

20191205_125026.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely a 2 pint job!

There are folks with mad skills that can do things that pretty much are impossible for the rest of us; but when giving advice to folks who don't have such skills, (if they did they would not be asking for advice), I tend to err on the "Don't make things worse", side of things.

When I do run into a gnarly problem, I try to find the "go to guy" in the machine shop; often in his 60's with heavy glasses and and old worn toolbox clean enough for a neurosurgery suite.  I won't put a time limit or hang around annoying him and WILL NOT ARGUE PRICE!  He may have a milling bit with 3 right angle bends in the shaft---or can make one or may just cheat and mill it through other dimensions but generally the job is done beautifully.

Now if things are not "mission critical" and replacements are obtainable/cheap; I'll be happy to try to increase my skills, sometimes at the expense of the item...I've drilled a hardened pattern welded blade with a solid carbide twist drill before with great success; but I went back to first principles and tried to do everything right as I had only the one drillbit and the project was on a hard time limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely Thomas- I'm good friends with these guys, and the favours go both ways- I often help them out with CAD designs, 3D printing, etc..... but- it would be easy have them solve every problem I ever come across, but the last thing I want to do is tick these guys off..... because when I need their help (like today!) I really NEED it!

Hence, I try and only trouble them when I have no other options.

The workshop guys will be feasting on cakes and biscuits tomorrow I assure you! :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My hat is off to the Forum Members who helped to bring this project to a successful conclusion!

Congratulations Jon Kerr, It is good that your Mates came through, and you did not have to go down the risky path.

15 hours ago, Anachronist58 said:

This is posted as a last-resort option, if you find yourself painted into that odious corner.

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I tend to err on the "Don't make things worse", side of things.

Completely Agree, Thomas.

Edited by Anachronist58
Post Assembly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Good Morning Robert,

I have to agree with you, except, I come from 40 years of having to repair all the "oops" that E-Ze-Out's have created.

Good Morning, Niel,

I have to admit, only a few times (less than 30) have I had to deal with Rookie Mangling of botched extraction.  30 years of Aerospace, the Tooling Departments came down hard on those who broke the Rules, and my extraction jobs were too scary for my customers to even attempt (most of the time). 

Robert Taylor

Edited by Anachronist58
Post Assembly

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Anachronist58 said:

My hat is off to the Forum Members who helped to bring this project to a successful conclusion!

Absolutely, this ^

Thanks again everyone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Can't be emphasized enough----Dunning-Kruger seems to be the norm nowadays on the net!

I just read an article about Dunning-Kruger Effect, and now I know more about it than anyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to disappoint you JHCC, but you could not possibly know more about it than I know. My tremendous humility precludes further elaboration.

Robert Taylor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read one word in a textbook on homeopathic medicine so now I am thinking of adding Dr to my name.

Robert;  you mention strict controls; however now the internet champions "everybody's opinion is as good as another's"  While this can result in amazing creativity; it also can result in plaster of paris lined forges and people doing things hideously dangerous for reasons they are not aware of.

There are a number of times where I have deleted my post before submitting it as it described stuff I had done safely but could go very wrong for other people; or things I have survived perhaps by sheer luck.  I would prefer to have the craft seen as the preserve of fuddy-duddys than it perceived as wild and crazy people doing dangerous stuff and to see Sunday circulars with articles like "Is your neighbor a blacksmith?  Here's how to shut them down!"   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I once knew a monk who boasted (apparently without any irony at all) that his great humility was the thing of which he was most proud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had trouble picking out what I liked most about your post,

38 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

and people doing things hideously dangerous for reasons they are not aware of.

brings to mind the infamous Shoe Store Foot X-ray machine.

Robert Taylor, the Humblest of All.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Jon Kerr said:

This turned out to be a lifesaver as there was something VERY hard stuck in the bottom of that hole. Even the milling machine with a carbide drill was NOT sounding very happy. Furthermore the hole hardly matched up to the measured holes in the jaws so wouldn't have fitted even if I'd been successful.

Most likely a broken drill bit, or a broken off stud extractor. The sort of left behind bits you find when you try to fix someone else's unfinished repair. And that reaffirms the principle of never using those wretched extractors unless you have a plan B and a plan C to apply after they break off. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Specially modified carbide endmills will cut cobalt drills. I have had to shatter broken carbide from holes. If saving the part is paramount, then as Thomas Powers mentioned, it is off to the Wire Electric Discharge Machine (EDM).

Marc 1, I agree wholeheartedly - leave those wretched extractors to the highly skilled professionals, like me.

Robert Taylor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When all else fails, I use small carbide endmills and manually eat out most of the offending bits.  I happen to have a lot of worn 1/8" carbide endmills and just chuck em in the foredom, carefully picking around in the hole.  Eventually you get to the point where what's left can be basically pried out of the hole.  I don't think I've ever had the privilege of a part that would actually be mountable on the milling machine...everything seems to be too awkward for that.

Not fun and definitely last ditch method.  However with care, I've saved a lot of holes from needing to be enlarged.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed Kozzy, the mill is a luxury process that can cost more than the part you try to fix. A Die Grinder is a cheap way to get rid of any hard inclusion.

Robert ... you have made it abundantly clear that you are a multi decades long weathered professional as opposed to us poor plebs down the flat. 

A detailed step by step write up, based on your experience would have been more useful ... but it is too late now. Maybe next time. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite right, Marc, for all of my arrogance and puffery, I have failed to deliver. I submit that my only intent was to defend the tool concept itself, and its inventors.

Robert Taylor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done a similar repair last year, with similar results, and even with a broken drill bit in one hole too. My fix was somewhat different though. I ground out the drill with a carbide endmill - very slowly , lots of coolant. But I never tapped the hole, I just cleaned it, degreased it, made new jaws that lined up perfectly, and made soft copper rivets; and hammered them in. The customer wasn't going to use it to hammer on anyways, and the copper rivets are still holding up strong ... And with the mangled thread on the inside, it's really stuck in there, but still easy to remove, it is soft copper afterall.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jaws are now in position. I intend to dress them with a grinder at some point, including radiusing the edges facing the vice body which may help them sit better.

As you can see the alignment of the jaws isn't great. Does anyone have any guidelines as to what the alignment should ideally look like for a closed leg vice? Obviously due to the swinging mechanism they are only going to be parallel at a certain distance apart.

20191208_125430.jpg

 

I started making a vice stand for this. I still have a ways to go.....

 

20191208_125426.jpg

Unfortunately, I also made the mistake of leaning the vice up against a cabinet while I drilled out the holes for the stand. I watched in slow motion as the 30kg vice began to topple sideways and crashed into my 3D printer.... I had tools in my hand, and there was no way I would catch it in time.

(A stupid mistake. It was a temporary storage location under a bench. Accident waiting to happen. Fortunately the 3D printer wasnt currently in working order anyway, but its certainly not going to be working any time soon now!)

*sigh*. Two steps forward, one back.

20191208_123629.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Jon Kerr said:

. I watched in slow motion as the 30kg vice began to topple sideways and crashed into my 3D printer....

Oh no!  It's called time dilation. It happens under stress. Have you ever been in an auto accident that seemed to last for minutes versus seconds or in a thirty second fight that seemed to last ten minutes?  Your brain speeds up so the world seems slower. I seen the results of a study where volunteers jumped from an eight story building and then had to estimate the time it took. Every one over estimated drastically. I was in an auto accident and it seemed to last forever. I remember whole thoughts going through my head. It's bizarre. 

Pnut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Collision of the old and the new. The new lost :)

It seems that your moving jaw is lower than it should be. Check the big pivot bolt or the eye in the jaw for wear. 

Also, the jaw insert don't sit properly in the jaw. The old one were not as high and sat below an edge that formed as the jaw rolled over with use. You may have to dress the jaw and fit the insert so that it sits flat and square against the jaw. Be careful with the grinder. Use only flap disk and that very sparingly a bit at the time checking repeatedly until the jaw insert sits square.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...