Should dropping a 1" ball bearing leave small depressions on my new anvil?

[ausfire]

Thanks for the update. That is a crummy anvil and I want to see a good result here.

[Rojo Pedro]

Sorry to hear Barry. 

I was really hoping that Ridgid would make this right. I have now reconsidered my future anvil purchase and definately will not buy an anvil that I cannot test first.

Diaspointing for sure  and I hope the return shipping is reasonable. Thanks for sharing your tale of woe.

[foundryguy]

23 hours ago, JHCC said:

That does it for me -- if I ever get a new anvil, it's going to be a Holland.

Thank you for the mention or our Holland tools! The dimples look like ours do bouncing on a non hardened anvil, we probably get 40% rebound along with a thunk. A hardened anvil may leave a small mark depending on the size of the ball but nothing like that. I had a guy show up with a 2 inch ball wanting to bounce it around and i said, buy if first if you want to use that. Like a hammer blow, a quality hardened tool can leave a mark.  I also do not understand the course grain in the photo, its more a characteristic common in ground cast iron or ductile when it is machined, not steel, especially an alloyed material. I do not knock anyone's products but that is an odd photo in many ways. 

[Barry M]

5 hours ago, Rojo. Pedro said:

I was really hoping that Ridgid would make this right. I have now reconsidered my future anvil purchase and definately will not buy an anvil that I cannot test first.

Diaspointing for sure  and I hope the return shipping is reasonable.

I am still talking with RIDGID.  They have not told me my options yet.  They also have not told me that I had to pay return shipping, but I read their warranty info and it stated that  the purchaser is responsible for return shipping.  I am still hoping for a good outcome.

On 12/10/2018 at 11:19 AM, JHCC said:

That does it for me -- if I ever get a new anvil, it's going to be a Holland.

In my research, I did not come across Holland.  I will give them a look.

[JHCC]

Click on IFI member foundryguy, above; that’s his baby. 

[Reeltree]

If in fact the reputable online retailer is a contracted , licensed , legal or (how ever you wish to state) dealer for Ridgid, I would defiantly deal with the online store to cover all return cost.   Also apprise Ridgid , as you have, of your experience.  It would be up to the online retailer to get any adjustments from Ridgid. If you have any blacksmith or metal crafters associations in your area that could possibly inspect the anvil and issue a letter on its current condition , that may be useful also. And if paid by credit card and being an online purchase they may b able to help.

[Kozzy]

If it gets into a bit of a battle, chase down someone with a "pocket penetrator" to do a quick hardness test of the surface.  I'm guessing the anvil stated somewhere in the literature that it was hardened to XX (most do) and that'd be a pretty definitive way to show its failure to meet spec...or show you that it does if their specs were low.

I have a portable penetrator for field tests in my middlin shop so someone near you must also...and poking around to find a new friend who does is always worthwhile.  Try small machine shops...and see if they have useful metal drops they'll sell you at the same time.  

Were I to guess, I'd say they under-quenched and the latent heat of the core drew out the hardness of the surface too much.

 

 

[Barry M]

3 hours ago, Reeltree said:

If in fact the reputable online retailer is a contracted , licensed , legal or (how ever you wish to state) dealer for Ridgid, I would defiantly deal with the online store to cover all return cost.

I bought the anvil from Zoro Tools and the have been great so far.  They apologized for the problem and said that I could return it.  I am waiting on a response on weather they are paying for return shipping.

RIDGID asked for a picture of the anvil face and I sent them the one that I posted here on iforgeiron.

[Barry M]

2 hours ago, Kozzy said:

If it gets into a bit of a battle, chase down someone with a "pocket penetrator" to do a quick hardness test of the surface.

Will do.  If RIDGID sees the pictures and says that it is normal then I may do that.

[Barry M]

7 hours ago, JHCC said:

Click on IFI member foundryguy, above; that’s his baby. 

I like how the whole anvil is hardened.  Here is a quote from Holland Anvil on Facebook "the entire anvil is hardened, all one hardness. H13 is done in a vacuum furnace and quenched with nitrogen then tempered to the correct hardness. Something like 8640 or 4140 is surface hardened." 

[Reeltree]

Well,  wood wuck,,  me being the pessimist I am,,( is the glass half full or half empty,, it depends on if you are filling it up or pouring it out),, I would state shipping was already paid the first time. You had nothing to do with it being defective, not as stated in advertisement so forth  so on,,, Ideally it could be scraped and forego any shipping, Anywho,Im just venting, been to a county Board of Supervisors meeting tonight, its amazing just how slow the wheels can turn.

[georgef8]

A second Rigid Peddinghaus No. 9 for comparison

Another newbie here. I've been lurking for a few months and discovered this thread a few days ago while waiting for my Peddinghaus No. 9 anvil to arrive. 

I went to the shipping company depot today to pick it up and dropped a 1" ball bearing on it from various heights before loading it. The anvil was wiped down with acetone first.

The rebound in the center seems very good, dropping off a bit towards the edges. Measured carefully once I got home, it is 37.5 inches out of 40 or just over 90% near the center.

Interestingly the ball leaves marks on the anvil, but these ones are not divots like the ones on Barry's anvil.  They are grey marks when side lit and they disappear when lit from behind. 

They also have no perceptible depth when viewed or lit from any angle, and I cannot feel them with a fingernail. They buff out with 1500 grit paper fairly easily, although you can tell the steel is hard and cuts slowly.

My guess is that the ball being harder and smoother than the anvil is able to slightly flatten the peaks of the grinding scratches and modify the way they reflect light. By the way, the anvil finish looks a little bit finer than 1500 grit and the camera really emphasizes the grainy appearance some of you have noticed. I bet if this anvil was a decade old and no longer shiny I would not be able to see any effect.

I'm satisfied with keeping this anvil and hope to get lots of good use out of it. 

Here are some pictures showing the marks, how they are less visible when wiped with WD-40, how they buff out with 1500 grit paper and a picture of the anvil itself which looks just like Barry's except that I think the droop is is less on this one.

Best of luck to you, Barry - hope you get a good one soon.

 

[JHCC]

georgef8, can you give us a side shot with a straightedge, so that we can see how its flatness compares to Barry's?

[Barry M]

Thank you georgef8 for the comparison.  If I had received your anvil I would be happy.  Looks like yours was hardened correctly.  On mine, the rebound is better at the edges and horn (at or above 90) and less in the middle (about 80).    The dents on mine are small but they can be felt when you run your fingernails across them and they don't go away.

[Barry M]

Zoro Tools emailed this morning and said that they would pay for return shipping of my anvil.  I have not heard back from RIDGID since I sent the photo of the dents in the face.

[ede]

The ball bearing can be a minimum of 62 HRC since they are commonly 52100 alloy.   I believe they are simply harder than most anvils.  

I have a refflinghaus, a Peddinghaus, and a recently purchased Vaughn.   Tried it on my Vaughn with a 1” ball bearing for 2 bounces and noticed some small depressions.   It’s a nice parlor trick and I know lots of people use it to determine rebound, by as for myself, never again.   

 

 

 

[georgef8]

Here is a droop picture for JHCC taken in the same way as Barry's. The level has a magnetic strip on the bottom and it is wedged with the quarter so that the right hand side is in contact with the anvil.  In other words the measured droop on the left is the total from left and right sides.  If the level is allowed stick to the crest in the middle, I can barely push the quarter under each end, so that means 1/16" at each end.

 

 

[Reeltree]

That's good news,,I will give them consideration if looking online for tools,,nice to know they will pony up.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

First I've heard of Zoro Tools. Found out they are a subsidiary of Grainger. I have never had a problem with anything ordered from Grainger so Zoro probably has just as good of customer service (unusual in today's market).

A case in point about customer service. We ordered a 72 inch belt grinder from KMG. When it came in the motor had some damage (capacitor cover was dented badly). The carton had no damage and it was apparent the motor was packaged that way. I contacted KMG about it. They shipped us another motor n/c and said to peel off the label of the damaged motor & mail it back but to keep the damaged motor. Customer service like that is hard to beat. After a little anvil & hammering time the cover is OK and the damaged motor works fine and can be used for something else or as a spare.

[cabmaker5]

I bought a ridgid #12 anvil two years ago waited 6 months and this beautiful anvil arrived. I unpacked it and took off the pallet and cleaned it up then checked rebound and ring perfect! I took a small ball peen hammer and gently bounced on the face no marks until I got around the pritchel hole. Now dents started to show up in an area 1"x3" that was very soft but was 5/8" from the edge which was hard. I phoned the tool company I bought from they referred me to the regional rep for ridgid and explained the problem and sent him a video clip. He said that wasn't good and for me to send the anvil to them and they would ship another. I phoned the ridgid main distribution centre and they were out of stock and didn't know when the next shipment would arrive from germany. I then started checking reviews on the internet and there were a number of folks with rigid anvils with soft spots lately so I got thinking I could be without an anvil for another 6-8 months with no guarantee that the replacement would be any better or might be worse. I decided to keep the anvil and ground out the soft spot, preheated and carefully laid in some arctec 60 ecoface rod and ground it flat. It turned out as hard as the rest of the face and confident it will give good service for as long as I need it. As for voiding the warranty with the repair the warranty doesn't mean much to me.

 

[SLAG]

Mr. Cab …,

Reading this thread leads me to one conclusion.  The warranty is worth next to nothing.

Also, the fact that Ridgid Co.  has not waded into this thread speaks volumes. 

I will not give much thought, to Ridgid anvils when I buy a larger anvil, shortly.

SLAG.

[Marc1]

Ridgid are famous for their plumbing tools. They are now a multinational company with branches around the world. I doubt they manufacture that anvil in Germany. Most likely Asia somewhere. 

There are few places in the world that can make a decent anvil at a decent price. Plenty that believe they can offload their scrap in the shape of an anvil.

A decent place is Branco in Czechoslovakia. They have a massive variety and manufacture for a lot of blacksmith outlets. i was tempted some time ago to import a container of them to resell here, where prices are so high they make your hair curl, but decided against it due to negotiations being difficult. in hindsight should have gone in person. 

Not that such helps you

[Barry M]

RIDGID did get back with me and said that they would replace the anvil as soon as they get them back in stock.  I emailed back with questions and they responded that the anvil would be shipped from RIDGID, the anvil would be checked for hardness and it would not cost me anything.  So both RIDGID and Zoro have given me great customer service.  I contemplated for a day or two and decided to return to Zoro for refund.  I'll pound on my RR track a little longer and keep looking.  Next year I am retiring and I am taking the family around the US.  I may make a stop in Jackson Wyoming and Holland Michigan.

[JHCC]

Thanks for the update. Good to see Zoro and Ridgid standing behind their service and product, respectively. 

[stevomiller]

Marc, they are definitely made in Europe. The Have production done in both Germany and Belgium on their anvils.