RogueRugger Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I'm stumped . I have a reuleaux shaped piece of 3/16" plate. The reuleaux is 8" on the side. There is a 3-1/2" circle cut with a bias toward one corner. I am trying to forge a bowl from the plate and then 'suspend' a 3" brass plate inside the circle in the bowl. Currently I am forging the bowl shape using a fly press and 'smushing' the plate between two bowl shaped swages. The result is a nice bowl shape from the reuleaux plate. The plate is heated thoroughly to try to keep the metal flowing evenly during forging. Unfortunately the original circular hole is distorted during the smushing. I'm thinking I might be able to reforge the hole if I had a cone. However, no one within 4 hours of me has a cone I can borrow. Short of making a conic section from some strap, I'm a bit stumped about how to maintain the circular characteristics of the hole. Is there any thoughts on how to selectively heat portions of the plate to recover the circular shape? Image 1 (far left, B/W) is the flat reuleaux plate with the brass disk. Image 2 (middle) is the best I've been able to achieve and the pic looks better than it is. Finally, the image on the right is sort of a before and after picture of a second attempt which ended up even worse. Thanks for any suggestions, Dave Iron Rain Forge www.IronRain.us [For the curious, these are awards for a juried sculpture show in our artsy little town. The brass plate will be etched with info related to the show, date, place, etc. and will be suspended in the hole using small copper loops.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Forge first then cut the hole. When forging, think about the metal's resistance to movement. It'll always move at the point of least resistance. Selective heat may help if you made the mistake of cutting a bunch of these shapes before forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 The result of forge first then cutting looks like ... well, really bad even when done by a real pro with a plasma torch. Mistake? I bow to your superior judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Custom fit the brass plate to each hole! Each award would then be unique in its own way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Try cutting the hole with a carbide tipped hole saw with a steel rod in place of the pilot bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 8 hours ago, RogueRugger said: The result of forge first then cutting looks like ... well, really bad even when done by a real pro with a plasma torch. Forge first, cut hole undersize, shape hole with files and/or die grinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Stephens Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 If you still have, or can get them, you might try tacking the slug back into the hole. Then dishing the piece, then removing the slug. The mass of the slug will help with the hole distorting. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 if you plan to make a lot of these your going to have to make press type tooling just for it Idea weld some hole slugs together then weld to bottom dish then cut hole in top dish die & taper slug stack so pieces will not lock down into jig also mite need punch out hole so you can get part out of jig a bit of work to make ! should work though ! Ho use forging lube to will help in removing part from jig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Hole saw after forging the bowl shape. If torched out use a trepanning tool to get the proper layout first. Besides rotating it will also need to move up and down. Easy enough to make one. Then use the slug to lay out the others. Have them milled at a machine shop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 If you want to cut the hole first then backwards engineer your finished sample. This will tell you how much "bad" draw you got (Out of round). Subtract the "bad" surface area from your original round hole. Meaning, and as a quick guess, you need to start with a horizontal oval, not a circle. Actually, if you have a lot to do, this will save you much heartache and cleanup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 Try it in modeling clay first to see how it reacts. But I would go with a hole saw myself. Keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 On 6/15/2018 at 5:52 AM, Judson Yaggy said: Try cutting the hole with a carbide tipped hole saw with a steel rod in place of the pilot bit. yeah, I think this is what I'm going to do. Sorry to be dense, but any reason for the steel rod replacement? Thanks to all for the great suggestions. I actually had made a few blanks with and without the pre-cut hole. I hadn't expected quite this much distortion, and want to still figure out how to keep it from happening.However, running into a time crunch on this and need to get moving on this. Too many things in the queue. Any suggestions on a good source for quality hole saws? Thanks again for the ideas. 14 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: Try it in modeling clay first to see how it reacts. But I would go with a hole saw myself. Keep it simple. Clay is always a great idea for stuff like this and I hadn't thought if it. Unfortunately a quick test didn't quite react the same, which I don't quite understand either. so much confusion. sigh. As you say, simple is good and am going to go with the hole saw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, RogueRugger said: . I hadn't expected quite this much distortion, and want to still figure out how to keep it from happening You cannot keep it from happening. You just need to know how to cut your original hole to get what you want to end up with,,, as I explained above. When you bend a piece of iron, some edges will be upset and other edges will become drawn out. This is basic blacksmithing and you cannot change or prevent this. Thus you can only learn how much draw and upset you will get and where, then apply this to your original hole. Or, not worry about it and cut it out after you shape your piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 I suspect the reason for the rod in lieu of the pilot bit is so you can gain the necessary length to align the hole saw. If it were long enough, you could potentially route the rod through a guide hole underneath the piece. Assuming you're using a drill press, you'd have the saw locked in like a spit-roast which would minimize any wander as you cut on the sloped surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 DO NOT HAVE HANDS NEAR THE WORKPIECE WHILE CUTTING THE HOLE. Can you have them laser cut or waterjet cut after shaping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted June 21, 2018 Author Share Posted June 21, 2018 Thanks to all for the suggestions. While the hole saw seemed to be the consensus as the easiest approach, it got a bit complicated when considering the safety aspects of drilling through the bowl. I almost tacked a couple of cross pieces, somewhat like the suggestion by +IronWolf. I should have kept the slugs for no other reason than I could have used them for something else; hindsight is always 20/20. I think the cross pieces would have worked pretty well. I ended up simply accounting for the differences in the expansion of the different sections and finished all three pretty quickly. Some selective cooling and heating. Not prefect, but pretty close. (someone suggested this was not possible and I don't understand that word as well as I probably should.) There still some clean up to do on the ironwork, the etching, and of course, the attachment. Thanks again for the great suggestions. Dave Iron Rain Forge www.IronRain.us [Edit: the large distortion of some of the holes in the picture is due to perspective.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 That looks very nice. In a sense, the irregularity of the forged hole adds to its charm, especially contrasted to the mathematical perfection of the brass disk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Gorgeous work, Rain. I think they came out perfect, and the little oddity to the steel circle only makes the piece look better. Something of a Japanese aesthetic, I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlpservicesinc Posted July 5, 2018 Share Posted July 5, 2018 My suggestion when just now seeing this thread was the same as Anvil's.. Figure out the amount of distortion and subtract it.. This is the way I have done this kind of thing.. After seeing the replies and you being happy with the results is good enough for me.. Well done.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Practice makes perfect. The last one looks fine. If you think you can or need to get it better. You will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 Hmm in the future what about using the deformation to make an eye with a golden pupil? A good award for art! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 6/22/2018 at 12:17 AM, RogueRugger said: While the hole saw seemed to be the consensus as the easiest approach, it got a bit complicated when considering the safety aspects of drilling through the bowl. Isn't just a case of... Putting a bit of wood on your bench, put the bowl on that face down & clamp it to the wood/bench so the convex side is face up (and you're not damaging the corners with steel on steel), get the hole saw, offer it up & draw around it, find the centre, drill a pilot hole the same size as whatever size bit goes in the holesaw, put the hole saw on a cordless drill along with the pilot bit/replacement pilot rod in the centre...and drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted July 18, 2018 Author Share Posted July 18, 2018 Thought there might be some interest in the final result. Ran into a time crunch due to a series of health scares, so i had to compromise on the design a little bit. Still reasonably happy with the results. FWIW - These are the awards for the Creede Sculpture Show this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Excellent! Are you from Creed, or the surrounding area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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