Stahlmann Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Hi guys, I've looked around on the forum and through other sources, and haven't found this exact question answered, so I'll go ahead and ask. Yesterday I went through the process of trying to heat treat my anvil carved from railroad line (marked 1939). I've read many instructions on how to do it, including the oft quoted/referenced Weygers book, but have not seen this issue addressed... As instructed, I set my anvil upside down on the coals and then buried the striking surface. I covered the surface deep in super hot coals and had a hairdryer going on them just about constantly from all angles. As you'll see in the attached picture, I used pipes on one side to get air up under the coals, while also heating the surface coals on all sides. The blower was kept on low, and at times alternated from 6in to 2-3ft away from the fire depending on the heat coming off of it at a given time. I did this for over 2 hours, trying to get the surface to cherry red. The hottest it ever got was a visibly dull red which, when water quenched, did not pass the file test. My question is, will it hurt the anvil performance to bury it entirely in hot coals? The exposed base of the anvil, I believe, is acting as a heat sink and pulling the heat away from where I need it. The obviously dated Weygers book suggested using asbestos as an insulator (no thank you), but I'm hoping I could get the same effect with a full pile of charcoal. Are there any drawbacks to this? Also, one book I'm using "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas suggests an easy way to temper the anvil post-quench by heating it in the oven for several hours at 325 F. What are your assorted opinions on that method as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Way too shallow a fire; you want 4-6 inches of hot coals under the rail as well as on top, building a simple tuyere would work a lot better than blowing air in from the sides. If you were using briquettes DON'T they are engineered to put out less BTUs than real charcoal. How to build a forge has been covered on this site probably hundreds of times; I'm sorry you couldn't find it. Basically this is "I put a lawnmower engine in my full sized pickup and I can't get it to 75 mph---what's wrong?" type of question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Yup this is where the picture speaks a thousand words. The forge design is why you are not getting up to temp. ( and depending on if you used briquettes or lump charcoal. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 If your fire is big enough, you don't have to worry as much about the base acting as a heat sink. That's only an issue if it's pulling out BTUs faster than the fire can put them in -- in other words, if your fire is too small. I totally agree with not wanting to use asbestos as Weygers recommended back before people realized how bad the stuff is. For the same reason, you don't want to use unrigidized ceramic wool or the like. However, if you have access to a decent supply of firebrick, you might try piling those around and on top of the fire. They'll act as a heat sink, to be sure, but they'll hold in more heat than plain air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stahlmann Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: How to build a forge has been covered on this site probably hundreds of times; I'm sorry you couldn't find it. This was just for a one-time project to heat my anvil. What I couldn't find was about exposed sections of anvil/rail line drawing heat from the striking face. I'm trying to learn. I'm new. Your snarky sarcasm is "appreciated", and really "helps". By the way, I used actual real true genuine hardwood charcoal. 59 minutes ago, JHCC said: If your fire is big enough, Thank you for your constructive and truly helpful input JHCC. I'll make the fire bigger, deeper, and with some fire bricks added as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 For a one off, it would be easy enough to just dig a fire pit in the ground and run the tuyere in it. No building up needed then just fill it in when done. But since you have the bricks to build up what you have ( other then a longer tuyere lip may help) I guess that's simple enough as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 @Stahlmann, if you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST. In particular, please don't quote extensively from previous comments unless you're replying to something specific. It really eats up bandwidth, and some of our members are in places without high-speed broadband. And you're welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stahlmann Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 @JHCCGood info in there, thanks. The info on the search feature is especially helpful. I'll also try to keep quoting to an absolute minimum. @Daswulf That's a good idea, unfortunately my landlord wouldn't appreciate me digging up his back lawn I'll probably buy some firebricks (they're fairly affordable here). I'd go out in the boonies and improvise with a hole in the ground, but it's pretty cold here right now and quenching in a frozen river might not work so well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Ah, there is that. Probably not. Just in the realm of other ideas, lay down some old plywood and mound some dirt up on that ( sourcing the dirt from elsewhere). Again tho, building up your other setup with bricks oughta do it if set up in a way that will work. Others read these posts even after we are done with them so it never hurts to look at other ways to get it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Next time you are near a large bonfire throw the anvil in. It should heat up nicely. Build a trench fire with raised sides and a way to cover the top, and enclosing the anvil. Think of a wood fire at the bottom of a gas type forge. Leave holes at the bottom for both air and more fuel as needed. The top covering can be plate steel or what ever is handy. As to quenching, you are going to need a LARGE volume of water. A frozen river would make for a hard quench. Make a hole in the ice first and keep the anvil moving so you do not get a steam envelope around the anvil. I think the rr track work hardens when in use. You may not need to re-harden the metal. If the landlord might object, then lay down some protection to his lawn. It will make clean up easy. A sheet of plywood (or tarp), sand, and some paving bricks under the fire, and the grass should not feel the heat at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Go somewhere and build a campfire. At Scout Camp , the basic campsite fires we made would be plenty hot enough with some extra air being fed into it to heat a chunk of rail. No bricks needed, just pile the wood on and start fanning the flames with a good air supply of air. Have some hot dogs and marshmallows along in case yo get hungry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 18 hours ago, Stahlmann said: This was just for a one-time project to heat my anvil. What I couldn't find was about exposed sections of anvil/rail line drawing heat from the striking face. I'm trying to learn. I'm new. Your snarky sarcasm is "appreciated", and really "helps". wow, dont expect too much more help around here with that comment the "read this first" thread warned you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 How many times have you referred people to “the complete modern blacksmith” and the instructions their in for the snapping and heat treating of a rail anvil, Thomas? We are interested in seeing people learn and succeed but to be honest, hot steel doesn’t care? About your feelings. If you get bent out of shape this easily I might suggest another hobby. Most of the folks who time and again spend time trying to give new peaple good advice charge significant rates for their time, that means that if they read your question and stop to answer you they think your worth the investment. If you alienate us old farts then your on your own. Would you like a mulligan? We have all made the mistake of stepping in it (some have even payed it on the anvil and taken a lick or two at it with a hammer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 I'm sorry but if you need to build a forge you need to build a forge. Not building a forge to do a forge's job; you should not be surprised at having problems. Instructions on how to build forges are rather well represented on these forums---even doing them on the cheap and with improvised equipment. The question being why did you think that not building a know good design to heat metal would be a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 If you feel telling you like it is and giving you a metaphorical example of why your question was too poor to answer is being snarky. We probably won't be able to help you till you learn enough about the craft to understand plain answers. NO as in ZERO need to heat treat a rail anvil. No need for a horn or flat face either. Horns and flat faces are cosmetic with little if any effect of working iron. Heat treating 1085 steel with NO knowledge or experience is an exercise in making scrap. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 8 hours ago, Stahlmann said: This was just for a one-time project to heat my anvil. What I couldn't find was about exposed sections of anvil/rail line drawing heat from the striking face. I'm trying to learn. I'm new. Your snarky sarcasm is "appreciated", and really "helps". If you do not like or appreciate the answers provided in the forum, please start with the many books on heat treating metals, the MSDS sheets on the metals you plan to use, and the proper heat treating for those metals. The Inter Library Loan (ILL) program from your local library will provide you with some great books that go into specific details on the chosen subject. And it is FREE or at the cost of postage of mailing the book. An internet search shows The Complete Modern Blacksmith is available for less than $10.00 You can always ship your "anvil" to a heat treating facility and have a proper heat treatment applied to the metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stahlmann Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 I'm sorry, but I just felt that Thomas' approach to telling me to improve my forge was rude and condescending. I was making a temporary arrangement for one job, and from the sound of it the only thing I may have been missing is insulation (firebrick etc) to stop the heat from bleeding out the top. I read several different sets of instructions on how to do the heat treat, and all they said essentially was to cover the inverted striking face in hot coals and wait. Most of you have given me great feedback and suggestions, but what I read from Thomas was "You're too stupid to read and research." My original question stated that I was unable to find info on heat-bleed, not that I'd never found a thread on how to build a forge. I'm sure Thomas is a very experienced smith who does excellent work, and has a very effective forge arrangement; this is the third time I've even made a charcoal fire at all and I only have un-applied book knowledge of the subject. I don't own many tools, don't have much extra cash for nifty equipment, and never had a dad to teach me how to use anything. His basic points were valid, but making a student feel stupid doesn't help anyone learn. I mean no disrespect to anyone, I only ask the basic respect due to someone trying to learn a new and fascinating art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Those of us who have been here for a while have seen MANY newbies come and go who ask the same basic questions that have been asked over and over and over and over again. Unfortunately, this can lead to some pretty monumental built-up resentment against people who don't do some basic research, and some of us can too easily forget sometimes that our cumulative annoyance might be misdirected when aimed at any one particular person. Don't take it personally, keep doing your research and asking intelligent (and precise!) questions, and all will be well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Adding a cover won't do the job. You need a deeper bed of coals. Use the firebrick to build up parallel side walls and put a tuyere along the bottom. Don't need nifty tools---I don't remember anybody saying anything about needing nifty tools---where did that come from? Take a look at the JABOD forge. I've done pattern welding with a claw hammer and a piece of rail---just cut to length, no other work done on it. (we used charcoal sieved from bonfires in the desert. We did have a nice hand crank blower but a blow dryer would have worked too.) I'm not disturbed by folks calling me rude as I consider so many people rude for wanting folks to help them out but not supplying enough information to do so properly. So I'd drop the discussion on rudeness and get back to how to modify that set up to work: Do you have access to an electric drill? (Gave each of my daughters one for Christmas when they were teenagers; brought one to college with me when I was young...) Can you find/source a piece of blackpipe? Here in the USA often sold for use with natural gas. If yes to both you can build a tuyere by drilling 1/4" to 3/8" holes in the top 1/3 of the pipe along the length your fire needs to be.. One end gets the blow dryer directed into it the other end gets plugged---dirt can work. Place along the bottom of your forge. Add real Charcoal, (was very happy to hear you are using the right stuff!) Get a good deep fire burning then add in the rail top down and pour charcoal around the sides LOW AIR otherwise you burn out the charcoal just leaving cold air blowing on the face. You may need to lift out the rail and put more charcoal under it from time to time. Low Air! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: You may need to lift out the rail and put more charcoal under it from time to time. If you continually add more charcoal around the sides of the fire and periodically lift the rail enough for the coals to settle underneath it, you may not even need to remove the rail entirely from the fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Preheating the rail in a regular wood fire can help with the charcoal usage too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 On 3/9/2018 at 2:07 AM, Stahlmann said: The hottest it ever got was a visibly dull red which, when water quenched, did not pass the file test. Just a minor point here. I haven't ever messed with trying to harden a piece of rail, but does anyone know if it would even contain enough carbon to pass the file test with a successful quench for maximum hardness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Yes regular train rail has about the eutectoid point of carbon or higher. (So 70's-80's points C) Often more Manganese than plain 10XX alloys for work hardening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 Oh yes, RR rail has more than enough carbon to harden enough to break like a ceramic mug. Like I've been saying for years you do NOT need to harden rail to make a fine anvil. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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