CopesyQT Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Hi!, I'm trying to build a reil burner pretty much of the 'King of Randoms' design, although due to being in the U.K. My parts aren't dead matching. I'm getting a mainly blue flame but it's very 'soft' and doesn't have that roar I want on full throttle, are any of the following limitations that I'm about to list a possible cause? 1. I'm using a butane canister instead of propane (going shopping soon) 2. It's almost 0 degrees here right now (especially an issue because propane) 3. the bell reducer I'm using is 1.25" instead of the 1.5" the design calls for 4. I haven't dremeled out the threads in the reducer yet any information will be appreciated and I'll try to answer any questions that you need to help, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 When you say Reil burner is this the one you mean? seems I've seen that the jets Reil picked here are not right for butane. I don't think the reducer is your problem. I mistakenly put a 3/4 to 1 in mine and it works like a champ if a bit on the rich side with a size 59. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenforge Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 You have changed too many specifics of the design to expect satisfactory results. i suspect the butane canister is themain culprit. Even at 0 degrees thepropane will perform better than a butane canister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 Yes I do Motomike, well at least it's very similar, I've made a temporary jig to be able to change where the nozzle is in the reducer so any advice with that would help. im being impatient really and using butane when really I should wait a few days, would butane really effect the preformance that much? Bare in mind it's an old canister in a cold country so pressure might not be high enough?, compiled by butane? I feel as if it's not getting enough oxygen, would removing the threads inside the reducer help? Maybe ports in the nipple? Maybe a better flare? (Kind of getting the burn happening in the tube) sorry for so many questions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 as you may be able to tell from the photos I'm using the incorrect flare fitting and actually using a 1" down to a 3/4" which i intend to change soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 most butane regulators here in the uk are fixed pressure and are much lower than the 1 to 15 psi you need, add a pressure gauge to see what you have, also you may want to use a proper gas rated ball valve rather than the one rated for air in your picture, yes using butane is different than propane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 I'm adding a pressure gauge soon, would you say something like This would be worth the extra effort to change my set up? Can I expect much better from the propane or do you see any faults? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1/ Yes. 2/ Yes, but only because you are using Butane (I assume that's 0 degC, 32 degF?) 3/ Probably: it certainly won't help. 4/ Probably: it certainly won't help. Best to wait until you have the correct reducer though. The "this" link in your post seems to return to this thread. Butane regulators are, to the best of my knowledge, 28 mbar fixed-pressure in the UK. Clip-on, rather than screw-in. You NEED a Propane cylinder with a screw-in connection (there are also clip-on cylinders like the Butane ones. Again, these use a fixed-low-pressure regulator, 37 mbar for Propane, and are no use to us) and an adjustable regulator to suit. 0-2 bar is good. 0-4 bar is overkill, but works and may be easier to find. Do not buy a 0.5-4 bar regulator: the lack of control at the bottom end makes it truly horrible to use once lit and unnecessarily exciting to light. Make sure it goes down to zero. You need to build EXACTLY to a "known good" burner design. The majority of the documented designs are for US fittings, making sourcing them in the UK a minor nightmare. ANY deviation from the documented design, however trivial, means that you have redesigned the burner and that you will need to make your new design work: not a problem if you understand burners, but the learning curve is steep and tends to be expensive in either time, money or both. The best advice I can give is to google, and buy, a Long-Venturi "Amal atmospheric injector" (usual disclaimer: I have no affiliation to them other than as a satisfied customer). The range jetted for Butane actually seems to give the best results when running on Propane in forges (without a secondary air supply). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ahh what is that thing on the end away from the gas injector? Looks like it would add back pressure to the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 If you include your location it will help, If your from Denver Colorado at that high altitude your going to have to make adjustments different from sea level places Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 the Thank you Timgunn1962, the link was supposed to be to an Amazon page for a 0.5-4 bar regulstor, -obviously since reading above I'm trying to source a 0-2bar and the propane canister I have coming Is standard Calor 13kg with a POL adapter. At this point it's certainly not impossible to return to a true reil burner, although from what you're saying, it's mainly the lack of pressure that's keeping it from working properly, honestly from the plethora of issues people have bought up in suprised it's as close to working as it is. would having a 1" x 3/4" flare connected to the end of the 1" pipe, essentially having a flare that flares the wrong way negatively effect it? Also I don't quite know what you mean Thomas? On the second photo I feel like the photo doesn't portray it well and I'all show you a cut away drawing tomorow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I mean this: "would having a 1" x 3/4" flare connected to the end of the 1" pipe, essentially having a flare that flares the wrong way negatively effect it? " and YES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Ah yes, unfortunately due to me being an idiot, i got the wrong flare so that's something I need to fix, I kind of bought it so the burner would work outside of the foundry (for show) as I believe the foundry acts as a flare its self in a way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 that constricting reducer on the business end looks like trouble brewing to me. would have to restrict velocity and cause back pressure. If I were guessing. The jig is very interesting, but in the reil burner you know exactly where the jet is in the bore. the jig looks as if it would be great for developing a burner. to qualify my comments note that I'm pretty new to all this myself. I've seen a lot of burners that work fine with the threads retained on the inside of the reducers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I am also new, but the Venturi design requires the end to flare and not reduce. By reducing, I believe it will constrict, but what you want is to constrict and then expand so it will pull air from the top. I will find a pic and post of what I am describing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect if you use this model and compare to your design, the end flare is what I think you are missing. So if that nipple is 3/4” (sorry for imperial, but I am US), you want the reducer turned around to go from 3/4” nipple to a 1 1/4” or 1 1/2” outlet. The flame exits on the 1 1/4” outlet and that expansion is what is necessary for the effect to create pressure and extend the flame out the end. Hope that makes sense. I know there are expert level burner makers on this forum, but I wanted to share what I saw. One last thing. I am not suggesting you use this as your model. I just built this and it is my first burner. But if you look at the flare on the end, you can see an example of going from a 3/4” nipple to a 1 1/4” or 1 1/2” flare. The red threads indicate female. The black indicate male. A I am brand new to these builds and have only built one dual burner. What I am illustrating is the concept and not an optimal design. I am still tweaking mine to work optimally, but based on a lot of reading I completed prior to this fabrication, the experts show an expansion on the south end of the burner to create a Venturi effect. I hope that detail helps you chase down the right answers. Good luck, have fun, and stay safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Okay first of all you say you know where the jet is in the bore, do you have a measurement for that? As where it is in the photo gave me as close to what I would expect I currently am waiting for the 1"x 1-1/4" reducer to arrive for the flare, xxxx xxxx grant Thompson's part list Also I'm waiting for this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00GNZ893G/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_bwbzAbJDKF1R8 To arrive to hopefully solve my pressure problems Strictly the design called for the jet to be quite far inside the bell, but wouldn't that effect air intake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Without even going into problems with your burner, you hit it in one. Butane simply doesn't run with sufficient fuel pressure when running to support a naturally aspirated burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 This video scares xxxxxxxxxxx me. But it showed me a little bit on jet place,met as he unsafely moves stuff around. . Thought I would share so you can see first hand how NOT to do things, but as this guy nearly burns down his home, it does provide a visual for what the jet placement will do. His demo and opinion are that the depth has very little impact (at least what I took away from it). I am not sure how this changed once he placed it in the forge and had a different environment for the burner with backdraft, non open air, etc. but it will probably help you form an opinion since he is playing with placement and tube e tension, etc. I actually liked what I took from the video, but again, I would never do what he is doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Welcome aboard CopesyQT, glad to have you. Lose the King of ranDUMB video as being useful or even safe to follow. I expect him to be homeless if he keeps up like that, someone is going to sue him for everything and win. Download or buy ONE set of proven plans and follow them. There's no good reason for you to try to figure these things out. People have been making gas burners from plumbing parts since they became available. The oldest patent I found showing one was from a patent for an improved farrier's forge circa 1870. Butane is too low pressure for a NA burner. 0 c. isn't a problem for propane, if you're drawing gas fast enough to freeze up the tank strap it upright in a tub of water. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EspenL Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 You might be more right than you realise Frosty. A few days ago he was charged with two counts of possession of an explosive device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 You're right frosty, I'm going to wait for my propsne and 2bar regulator and if it doesn't work instantly I'll change the design. espenl, has there been any more news on that haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CopesyQT Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 With the standard reil ez burner, it shows there's two positions for the 1/4" nipple and jet pipe to chose from to surely there's not a whole lot of difference where it is in reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMike Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Copesy, I didn't mean to say I knew the exact measurement for the placement of the jet, but that if you do the Bordeaux modification you drill the mounting hole just inside the thick rim of the big end of the reducer. presumably as close fitting to the 1/8 inch nipple you use for the jet pipe, so it dictates where the jet will sit. since this is seen as an improvement, over the original which strapped it to the exterior, there is enough free space around the jet pipe to allow air. I think many who use the 3/4 mixing tube and a 3/4 to 1.5 reducer as the intake, have a means of choking the intake are to tune the burner. The Reil burner is tried and true. most of the articles I've read on it show it working very well just as shown in the above drawing. I note that you mention the jet pipe as 1/4 inch. It was complex for me using inches my whole life, so it is an additional complication for someone in the metric world. This because they are not the size they are named. attached is a chart. So the outside dimension of a NPT 1/8 inch nipple is actually .4 inches. I dare say that despite its size designation, the ID also is not 1/8 inch. I don't know why. I guess in your design, I struggle to see enough similarity to the Reil burner that I would identify it as such without you telling me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidF Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 As Espen said about KingofRandom, here is the local story. This guy is probably five miles away from me. https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46238745&nid=148&title=2-men-face-felonies-for-science-experiment-explosions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 RanDumb indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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