newbiesmith Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 This is kinda a light hearted posts inspired by Mark's post inhttp://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/help-new-shop-5364/index3.html =================================================== Yes indeed Matt, I've got a good friend that landed here in western MD a few very ago and he definately is a product of the keep the people safe from themselves mentality of the UK, I pray every day that that free men and women are able to maintain the right to defend themselves against any threat to thier freedom. On a slightly different note, a double barrel .69 muzzleloading pistol with 130gr FF powder and volume equivalent of bird shot makes a MEAN defensive device(not a firearm by US law, as it doesnt take a premade ammo). Mark ================================================== My dad made him self a home-made black powdered cannon. It looks to be a 2 1/2" piece of round that was run through a lathe to shape it to look like a cannon barrel with a 1/2" hole bored down the middle. There is a fuse hole that is I think about 1/16" towards the back of the barrel. This is mounted in between two pieces of 2"x1" bar stock that is the length of the barrel. A small hole was drilled into the barrel at the very back and a tiny rod was used to connect the back of the barrel with the two bars. Pretty neat design. If I can get him to take a pic of it I'll post it. It doesn't have powder burns on it so I don't think he ever got the guts to shoot it but.... Then again I'm finding out alot of stuff he did that he denied doing when I was younger. Anyone else with stories like this? -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robk Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Figured I'd chime in here with a bit of legalese as the bit about not a firearm by US law, as it doesnt take a premade ammo seemed incorrect to me. So I looked it up: The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; ( the frame or receiver of any such weapon; © any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. 18 U.S.C. sec. 921(a)(3). Yup...unless it's an antique, it's a firearm. That's why I protect my shop with sharp forged objects :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I think it falls under antique (replica) firearm .. at least it did when i worked at the gun shop .. but that can change and can vary from state to state . In fact theyres a case in front of the supreme court right now that might change everything .They are challengeing washington d.c. ban on pistol ownership saying its unconstitunial... should be interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Back when I lived in the innercity of Columbus OH, my main shop security was done by clutter and weight! I never left any tools in it that weighed less than 100 pounds and had the clutter stacked to the roof beams. The city once demanded I get the wrought iron plate pile out of my yard---while I was recovering from pneumonia and had missed a month of work---so I had to move it piece by piece and stack the jagged gnarled sections upright in the "storage" side of the shop a shed add on to the 1920's 1 car garage I was using. Someone broke into that side once; I looked for blood on the several tons of ragged-jagged sheets but didn't see any and I didn't smell anybodys remains; so I was just annoyed I had to rebuild the door. One security trick was that I taught a bit of forging and knifemaking to the local teenage "gang" leader and for several years my shop had no vandalism, graffitti or break-ins... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbiesmith Posted March 19, 2008 Author Share Posted March 19, 2008 I swear you guys are cool. This is why I put the post up. Even though I'll have the feds on my doorstep in a couple days, it's worth it. Tom that last part was great. -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfb343 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Figured I'd chime in here with a bit of legalese as the bit about seemed incorrect to me. So I looked it up: The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; ( the frame or receiver of any such weapon; © any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm. 18 U.S.C. sec. 921(a)(3). Yup...unless it's an antique, it's a firearm. That's why I protect my shop with sharp forged objects Yes... and No per 921(a)(16) of Title 18, U.S.C. what we're talking about ARE antique firearms because 18 USC 16 says: (A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or ( any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfb343 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I swear you guys are cool. This is why I put the post up. Even though I'll have the feds on my doorstep in a couple days, it's worth it. LOL, thats no big deal, just dont tell 'em that yer a black smith or they'll impound yer smithy as a destructive device. Tom that last part was great. -Dan Like they say you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 I think it falls under antique (replica) firearm .. at least it did when i worked at the gun shop .. but that can change and can vary from state to state . In fact theyres a case in front of the supreme court right now that might change everything .They are challengeing washington d.c. ban on pistol ownership saying its unconstitunial... should be interesting... Yup, it's the case of D.C. vs. Heller. Heller is a 65-year-old armed security guard living in the Capitol Hill area of Washington D.C., who applied for a lisence for a pistol but was denied, then started taking it to law. The state court (I think; it's been a little while since I studied any US law) held in favour of Heller in that the D.C. pistol ban was/is unconstitutional. D.C. appealled to the Supreme Court. The anti-freedom crowd may have shot themselves in the foot here as a Federal Supreme Court decision could potentially affect bans and restrictions across the entire union. The Supreme Court heard the oral arguments on the 18th of this month. Almost from the start the justices were of the opinion that the right described by the Second Amendment is an individual one; that old tripe about it being a collective right barely got a look-in. The final decision will not be released for months yet, but it seems quite clear form the language of the justices and the questions that they asked that they will find in favour of Heller. As to how wide their ruling will be, the jury is out. It will likely though be that it will be as narrow as they can making it. There is the potential though that they will help to undo decades of damaging and useless laws. Just depends on how wide they make their ruling. Back on topic, my smithy is part of my home, ergo 'standard' domestic security procedures apply (dial-a-prayer and locked doors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Lets hope they go one step further; Arms at that time period included swords as has been attested to in the writings about that admendment at that period and so should be included in any carry laws based on it. I used to get quite annoyed that the Ohio concealed weapons law that they put up year after year only covered handguns---should have been a concealed handgun law per the requirment that laws be truthfully named! I wanted to option of getting a permit to carry a pattern welded silver hilted knife in my briefcase if it was raining without being a felon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete46 Posted March 19, 2008 Share Posted March 19, 2008 one more reson i love Ms. THE CASTLE LAW = IF I FEEL THEREATEND ON MY LAND OR HOME MEANS I GET TO PROTECT MYSELF[ain't that sweet] AS OPPOSED TO THE OBBLIGATION TO FLEE= LIBRAL BATTLE CRY " RUNAWAY!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchmancreek Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I live in Illinois...no concealed carry here, and if Chicago has it's way, there will never be. The state is very anti gun. On your own property they can't say anything about it, but on your own property there isn't any reason to conceal a firearm. The town of my address, however, has a law that every household possess firearms and ammunition,( not that the police would raid your place and scream "show us your guns or you are under arrest".) My wife is better trained with a handgun than most police in Southern Illinois, and I have had some experience with firearms. Out here in the country, we don't worry too much about security for the shop...I don't even lock it. JOIN THE NRA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 to get into my shops without the keys one would have to make a lot of noise,it might wake my dogs but definitely my wife.she had me up the other night checking out the wind chimes thinking someone had stolen them cause she couldnt here them.i told her i rather be woken up for a false alarm than not at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryCarroll Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Happy Easter to all :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Gun laws differ so widely that you need to refer to your local government and a good lawyer for advice, not a blacksmithing web site. Let us continue with shop security, but without the use of guns. Thank You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rip Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 a workshop with a lock and a not so friendly dog will do better than a gun anyday (ppl can be quiet at times ..... dog wont be) ... kept my stuff safe for years (odd 1st post i know but ... hi....waves) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 hey guys, I know that most of you are Americans, and so this will probably be shock to you, in Belgium we are not allowed guns! unless you're a licensed hunter or a licensed sport shooter (to witch there are pretty high demands). And what may even shock you more, I HATE guns, guns give cowards and weaklings power they can not handle, althow I know very well how to use them, and have practiced with some different types, my dad is a licensed hunter and sports shooter, but I still hate em, if every gun in the world would disappear that would be a great thing, they only cause more violence and allot of grief. Actually I'm against violence al together, but for that reason I have goatherd certain skills that if left with now athor options i can end with violence in a swift and clean as possible way. (i have trained in choy-lay-fut for several years) So for shop security, a good heavy blacksmithed lock, with a padlock in.. and if thats not enough, well guys we're blacksmids right, our shoulder pack a mean punch (ok maybe the guys who own a power hammer don't anymore :-p) and every one of us have a couple of fore hammers lying around... that should be enough to scare most thieves right!? And a good dog.. but my loyal companion died last year... she had severe and wide spread cancer, had to be put down to save here from suffering... my next dog again will be a German shepherd, such nice, smart and friendly dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 i have good locks, window bars, thick stone walls, a dog and most of a all a comprehensive insurance policy. if someone is hell bent on breaking in i am not going to try to stop them and get possibly maimed or injured in the process. I love my family far too much for that, that is why I pay for insurance. ditto Johannes, violence is so passe. I have no problem with shooting, for hunting purposes, to eat, or a neccessary cull (we replaced top predator in many places of the world and therefore must ensure some animal populations don't damage forests etc deer for example) but ending a creature's life for our amusement is a plain waste. my 2 cents... Colleen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbiesmith Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 I can appreciate your opinions but disagree. When I finally build my shop one of the signs that will be hung with pride says "God created man.... Sam Colt made them Equal" I don't care who you are or how tough you are (or think you are). If you come up against another person wielding a weapon and the element of surprise your toast. You can try and fool yourself into thinking that you can pull some major Kung Fu stuff but the probability of success is not in your favor. Granted the likelihood that you'd be able to get your "piece" in hand in time is equally improbable. But from what I've seen the threat of mutual destruction seems to be a good deterrent, just look at the cold war. Now let me hop of the soapbox and say this. As much as it would tourqe me to see that my shop has been ransacked you have to keep things in perspective. Your family is still alive and so are you. But having had close family have their home buglarized, it breeds the fear that that person will be back and maybe the cost will be higher. The problem is that in the US criminals get away with way too much. If the laws were properly enforced the likelihood you'd have issues like this would be minimized. The system, like most, is a flawed system. Which is why people should have the right to defend themselves at least on their own property. -Dan P.S. I'm not trying to insult anyone through this post. Gun rights has always been something that has been a touchy subject with me. So don't take my response personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 what are they going to steal anyway? Keep your electric tools and anything valuable, locked up in a heavy metal box attached to the floor, steel isn't worth stealing, the anvil, is a little heavy, the forge is either non-movable or too heavy, the coal is just not going anywher. I think most would be thieves are looking for easy money, they don't want to work for it. But you may have some more valuable things in your shop? I am lucky, I live in a place with a low crime rate, although they are stealing copper now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveh Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 having good neighbours helps,mine saved our aluminum driveway gates from from walking off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 Well out this way they will steal the hammers off your rack, the tongs, your scrap pile, etc. In cities they have been stealing cast iron which has the lowest scrap rate for metal I know of. Our rural "neighborhood" has lots of dogs; averages 2-3 per house and folks still check when they hear barking. We are near a RR-track that is a "road" for undocumented workers heading north; but with the dog pack roaming around we have had no problems yet. I *ALWAYS* Lock up the shop and when travelling I put padlocks on the roll up doors as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostfly Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 hey guys, I know that most of you are Americans, and so this will probably be shock to you, in Belgium we are not allowed guns! unless you're a licensed hunter or a licensed sport shooter (to witch there are pretty high demands). And what may even shock you more, I HATE guns, guns give cowards and weaklings power they can not handle, althow I know very well how to use them, and have practiced with some different types, my dad is a licensed hunter and sports shooter, but I still hate em, if every gun in the world would disappear that would be a great thing, they only cause more violence and allot of grief. Actually I'm against violence al together, but for that reason I have goatherd certain skills that if left with now athor options i can end with violence in a swift and clean as possible way. (i have trained in choy-lay-fut for several years) So for shop security, a good heavy blacksmithed lock, with a padlock in.. and if thats not enough, well guys we're blacksmids right, our shoulder pack a mean punch (ok maybe the guys who own a power hammer don't anymore :-p) and every one of us have a couple of fore hammers lying around... that should be enough to scare most thieves right!? And a good dog.. but my loyal companion died last year... she had severe and wide spread cancer, had to be put down to save here from suffering... my next dog again will be a German shepherd, such nice, smart and friendly dogs. Sorry about your dog. Losing a pet can be just like losing a family member. I agree with the rest of your post. I live in the US. I grew up around some guns, but my Father is a Vietnam vet and his opinions on guns is very negative and I've adopted a lot of that feeling. People in the US are too worried about Protecting themselves vs protecting society. Honestly if your man enough to kill someone be man enough to do it up close and personal. If you want to stop crime you can't look at your house and ask" how can i make myself safer". You have to look at society in general. People do not rob people when they can find safe, good paying, local jobs. I'm speaking locally about the US now, as Europe (and most of the rest of the world) has figured this out already. Terrifs are GOOD, certain taxes are good. GIANT corperations are not good. Free trade is a lie. I don't care how well people in mexico are doing, or in China. I care that my neighbors are getting payed enough to not have to steal my TV to feed their kids. Also, the guy who said "runaway=liberl battle cry" I find that shockingly offensive. If I'm gonna get mad enough to kill someone I'll use a knife, and I'm a far left liberal by my own admission. Killing someone is an evil thing even in the defence of your home and person. It's a failer of everything society should be about. Fix socity(and the economy) and we will fix most crime problems. I applogize for the political rant, I know this isn't the forum for it. but I felt certain things needed replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 This is gitting WAY too political ! it started about lighthearted post about shop security and now we go to anti protect yourself group hug liberal post ! come on guys if you dont believe in guns fine ! but when the bad guy has one your in big time trouble! and it hasnt changed with time or country its been that way since biblical times ......and might dosnt make right but that dosnt help if your on the wrong end! enouf of that as far as shop security i think just being near or haveing someone near is the biggest deterent . if someone is around less chance they will take a chance to steal .and dont think because your equipment is too heavy they wont steal it.... a friend of a friend had a 450 lb anvil stolen from his shop/ barn along with tongs hammers ect.... it was near the border so its probably in mexaco right now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted March 20, 2008 Share Posted March 20, 2008 I think this discussion has got way off topic, and as much as I enjoy a lively debate and certainly have my own opinions on this topic (you can probably guess my stance judging from my previous posts) I think we should return this discussion to the original topic. As I'm sure we're all aware scrap metal prices have risen significantly recently, and there are many reports of all sorts of 'street furniture' being stolen for sale to sracppies -- cast iron manhole covers, street signs, bus shelters and all sorts. It's already been mentioned but our shops are as much a target for thieves as any others, perhaps even more so. This topic is about how YOU safeguard your financial and emotional investment in materials, consumables, tools and work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbiesmith Posted March 20, 2008 Author Share Posted March 20, 2008 Well in all honesty. This post was actually supposed to be a somewhat comical digest of "creative" anti-theft solutions. Aka. Bear traps, paint can pendulums, etc.... -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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