old school blacksmith Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 Dave I know about the IBA due to someone else in the chat gave me a huge amount of info on the conference going on! but I'm going to try to go and can get a first glimpse at the tech. people use when forging. also thanks for reminding me about it because I've got to make plans to go to it. and guys the pic. of the forge is close on what I mite make. Oh have you heard of plaster of Paris mixed with water, and sand?? its off of a video on you-tube it's from the link below..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHD10DjxM1g and I was just wondering if it could be used on a brick forge. I thought that it would help on keeping the temp. high enough and help with fire control if one starts out of the forge. please just give me a Y or N and your pros and cons about this! the reason I've asked is because I'm trying to make the interior of the forge first and I was going to use that mixture for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Scroll down on the link to see how I made mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Please look up the MANY posts on how stupid that mixture is and how almost criminal it is to suggest it to people that are on this site. It is nearly the posterchild for how bad the information random videos can have on the net. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! It was at an IBA conference that I got my second class on pattern welding that really improved my skills. One of the featured demonstrators had a personal emergency and so Billy Merritt stepped up and did a pattern welding demo. Now as most of the IBA had seen Billy many times there was only a handful of us standing around the forge (within touching distance!) getting a closeup class from a master pattern welder. I drove from Columbus Ohio and was extremely happy I had done so. Of course that was over 25 years ago, I expect the conference is even bigger now! Good time to start saving for Quad-State too, it's in Late September in Troy Ohio, (just north of Dayton), and it's the biggest smithing wingding held annually in the USA. You can camp at the county fairgrounds to hold costs down and meet other smiths; but be sure to check your shocks and springs before going. (The first time the anvil collector from NM went he bought 30 anvils and a larger trailer to haul them home---and didn't exhaust the supply by a long shot. Last time I went I saw several people with over 15 anvils on their sales trailers and a lot more onesies and twosies!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 What are your sources on medieval smithing? The Backyard Blacksmith(book), and using first and secondary sources which I've forgotten. What type of Medieval smithing are you planning to do? swords but first beginner stuff from the book name given. How many people will you have working in your smithy? my self at first but I'm still deciding on if i'd want a striker Will you be using charcoal or will this be the later middle ages? char Thomas i'll give you my other answers later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, old school blacksmith said: Dave I know about the IBA due to someone else in the chat gave me a huge amount of info on the conference going on! but I'm going to try to go and can get a first glimpse at the tech. people use when forging. also thanks for reminding me about it because I've got to make plans to go to it. and guys the pic. of the forge is close on what I mite make. Oh have you heard of plaster of Paris mixed with water, and sand?? its off of a video on you-tube it's from the link below..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHD10DjxM1g and I was just wondering if it could be used on a brick forge. I thought that it would help on keeping the temp. high enough and help with fire control if one starts out of the forge. please just give me a Y or N and your pros and cons about this! the reason I've asked is because I'm trying to make the interior of the forge first and I was going to use that mixture for doing so. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! This particular bit of idiocy has been presented, criticized, explained, and dismissed so many times here on IFI that I've long since lost count. If you had bothered to read over the solid fuel forge section of the forum (like we recommended), you would know that. Go back and read. The members of IFI are more than happy to help in whatever way we can, but YOU have to show us that you're willing to learn. Following the most important piece of advice we've given you will show that more clearly than anything else. Go back and read. Go back. Read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Medieval smithies are characterized by having a bunch of people working in them at the same time; 5 is a good minimum number. If you don't have apprentices, journeymen, etc to do cleanup and prep and striking than it's not smithing in a medieval way. Think of it as going into a modern cardiac surgery suite for surgery---if only the surgeon is there; something is WRONG! The idea of having a single smith in the smithy is more an artifact of the dying down of smithing as a career where old smiths kept on going shedding assistants until they were finally alone. This was in "modern" times and the use of power tools allowed many to cost on for years and colour our beliefs about how smithing was done. Looking at 100 year old photos of smithies will show a bunch of people in them. Fantasy books and Movies are not a good source. If you watch the National Geographic "Living Treasures of Japan" part about forging a sword you will see the Master holding the stock while 3 people are using sledgehammers to strike for him. He also does not do the grinding and polishing on the blade or the hilting, or the sheathmaking! This is much closer to how medieval european swordmakers used to work. I don't recall Ms Simms discussing medieval smithing in Backyard Blacksmithing; I'll have to reread it. Now Theophilus in "Divers Arts" written around 1120 A.D. gives instructions on building bellows and a lot of info on making and tempering tools for crafts involved in the arts of the times. Luckily it's available in english translation---my latin stinks bigtime!---from Dover and should be easy to ILL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted May 30, 2017 Author Share Posted May 30, 2017 guys, guys listen I under stand you want me to use other topics that people have asked about blacksmithing but..... what I'm asking will it or will it not work? it's for the floor part of my forge. and I'm going to read the stuff that you guys are suggesting to me today! so will it or will it not work? THIS is the last time you are going to hear this question out of me! also Thomas I'm using the book as a somewhat how to guide if you understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Are you talking about plaster of paris and sand for the floor of your forge? If so what was unclear about: "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!" and "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!" ? It will work for a very short time and start to degrade immediately upon heating to forging temps. Clay based kittylitter and wood ashes will work better and have a longer use life. I strongly suggest you read the information on building a Tim Lively washtub forge and how to do the adobe for the firepot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted May 30, 2017 Author Share Posted May 30, 2017 is that on this website? if it isn't then where would I'd be able to get/ read it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Pro tip: the search feature on IFI isn't great, but you can almost always find what you want by typing "iforgeiron.com" and whatever keywords are relevant into the search engine of your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted May 30, 2017 Author Share Posted May 30, 2017 thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I don't know how much might be on IFI; I'm remembering it from when it was on Primal Fires about 20 years ago and Tim was posting. (and I was a moderator) If you don't know how to research stuff on the internet perhaps you could get an adult to help you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 guys I'm just looking for temporary ways for my forge to hold together and Thomas it may hold up for SMALL quantities of steel or iron right? theatrically?! also any else can put their remarks or ideas to this if you want. AND I do know how to research things; FYI: I'm a gaming, history, and science nerd. and when I mean nerd I mean I mess around in it. also I'm taking all of your guys' advice very seriously so don't think I'm blowing your advice off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 And you are dealing with folks who have been doing the same for several times your current age. I started playing D&D in the 70's; science nerd from the 60's. As an adult I have worked for major research institutions like Bell Labs and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory. After the oilfield crash of the early 1980's I was apprenticed to a professional sword maker. And that's just me! We have folks here who will correct your ancient greek, call you on fine points of horseshoeing, worked in major corporations, are professional knifemakers (some have written and published books on the subject!). Do you know what they say about asking the same question over and over and expecting a different answer? As the problem is that the heat is too high for the material, it will hold up as long as you don't try to heat any iron or steel up to forging temperatures. Yes it will take a while to degrade; so if you wish to do it over and over and spend time with the forge being repaired instead of in use, that is your choice. When I stack firebrick up I don't put anything between them, I back them up with adobe and they are good to go. I have enough experience to not be messing my forges up when using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I just took a quick look online, and from Just a quick glance, cheap clay based cat litter is cheaper then plaster of Paris. So why, in trying to save money, use plaster of Paris instead of clay based cat litter as Thomas had suggested? When as he said, clay will last longer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 32 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: We have folks here who will correct your ancient greek, That's "Ancient Greek", thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 57 minutes ago, old school blacksmith said: guys I'm just looking for temporary ways for my forge to hold together and Thomas it may hold up for SMALL quantities of steel or iron right? theatrically?! also any else can put their remarks or ideas to this if you want. AND I do know how to research things; FYI: I'm a gaming, history, and science nerd. and when I mean nerd I mean I mess around in it. also I'm taking all of your guys' advice very seriously so don't think I'm blowing your advice off! depends on how hot you want your forge to get for how long it lasts, keep the temp down below the boiling point of water and it will last a while, get it to forging temp and it may last seconds or at best minutes. IF you know how to research then why use what is well known as the worst mix, plaster of paris will be a hydrate which means it bonds to water, get it hot and the bonds break, very hot and it can be explosively, sand can be used as a flux for forge welding as it will liquefy at that sort of temp and neither of them insulate so the casing of your forge will be red before it gets to welding temp, you will also be using 10 times as much gas as you need IF it can get to welding temp without your burner melting / catching fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 See, we have an Ancient Greek Geek for your learning pleasure! Just dry lay the bricks and if the spaces become a problem in use fill the gaps with sand. Clay kitty litter is bentonite clay which is the same thing used to plug the tap hole in cupola iron melters. Believe it or not it's WAY better than needed for a brick forge. When I thought digging my own coal was a good option I built a large "duck's nest" coal forge with a fire brick bed. You arrange fire brick around the duck's nest to make the size and shape fire you need. The duck's nest itself is just a missing half brick over the air grate. It's as simple as it gets, you don't need brick, packed garden soil works just fine. Coal ash sealed off all the gaps in the stacked brick almost immediately. Stack them, fill the "pot,"(?) light it up and little flames blow out between the bricks till the fire is up and burning well. By then enough ash has blown into the cracks and gaps they're sealed off. Don't make things so complicated, it's just a fire. Think they got all fancy if they didn't have to back in the day? Oh and use plaster of paris for what it's designed for, repairing holes in sheet rock, molding, etc. and LOW TEMP casting molds. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Krekkekkek Borax Borax---- from the infamous "Forges of Aristophanes", the well known forge welding scene where the action is in flux.... Now what were the capitalization rules in Ancient Greek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 4 hours ago, old school blacksmith said: guys I'm just looking for temporary ways for my forge to hold together and Thomas it may hold up for SMALL quantities of steel or iron right? theatrically?! also any else can put their remarks or ideas to this if you want. AND I do know how to research things; FYI: I'm a gaming, history, and science nerd. and when I mean nerd I mean I mess around in it. also I'm taking all of your guys' advice very seriously so don't think I'm blowing your advice off! You live in the midwest. Surely you have access to somewhere you can dig up some dirt without getting in trouble. I'm still not sure if you're looking for a way to stick your bricks together or create a firepot. Either way, some clay and/or sand will do the trick if you stack your bricks well. I'm a little too lazy to go through all the hassle of making a temporary forge out of bricks. I'd much rather grab a hammer, some nails, and a few old boards to build an elevated box of dirt than to take the time and effort to make a brick forge which will most likely not be permanent or what you really want in the long run. Two or three old pallets will probably provide plenty of wood to do the trick. Either way you're still going to need a length of pipe and some way to blow air through that pipe. I build my first coal forge from an old 55 gallon drum, a small brake drum from a Toyota Corolla, and some 2 inch pipe/fittings. I bought the pipe I needed, so I think I had about 20 dollars in that forge. I already had a blower from a power vent water heater that I had to replace earlier that year. A hair dryer would have worked as well. You tell us you know how to research things and that you are taking the advice offered seriously, but so far there is little evidence of either of those things being true. At this rate the only thing you'll be making is excuses. If you are serious about trying this craft you could have already built a JABOD forge and been pounding on hot steel. Don't make this harder than it needs to be. No matter what you use for your first forge it will not be perfect, or even perfect for you. You won't know/understand what things you'd like to change until you've used it a while. A big-ish chunk of solid steel is all you need for an anvil. An old sledgehammer head (the bigger/heavier the better) set in a stump or other such object will do if you can't find anything else. Check out this video to see how these guys turn out knives with minimal equipment and power tools. I'm not suggesting that you should try to work exactly the way they do, but be open to other ways of doing the same things you want to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qol5Ey3sImQ When you first start, the quality of the tools will not have much of an impact in the quality of your work. Developing your skills should be your goal. The more proficient you become, the more the tools will make a difference in the speed and quality of the work you turn out. The sooner you get hammering on hot steel, the sooner you'll begin to develop those skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Now what were the capitalization rules in Ancient Greek? Ancient Greek? All caps, known as the "uncial" alphabet. By late antiquity and the early Byzantine period, a cursive script had developed, which later evolved into the "minuscule" script and thence into modern orthography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 I prefer the Carolingian Miniscule because I like the singing...My wife's standard hand is a variant of Black Text/Old English mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school blacksmith Posted June 1, 2017 Author Share Posted June 1, 2017 guys HOW WAS I SUPPOSE to know it is one of the worst mixtures that I could use!!!...... look; I'm just in need of a mixture that is cheap and it can hold up to forge temps for a few good go around(s). so here's the question that I'm actually asking; what mixture could.... dang got to go back to work i'll type the rest of it in a few hrs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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