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Total newbie - where to being with this anvil?


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Hi all,

I am very, very new to anything forge-related, but the wife and kids recently bought be a second-hand and very rusty anvil and leg vice as a gift (along with a couple lessons in forging which I am very excited about!)  But I honestly don't know anything about the anvil or where to begin in renovating it and keeping it good, or testing to see if it's OK, etc.  I don't know the make (didn't see any markings on it, but then I wasn't really looking), nor the weight (other than it being in the range of, "oh hell no, I can't lift that into the car, are you kidding me?!")...  But I'd like to make an effort in getting the rust off it, making it usable and then keeping it that way considering it'd probably be outside most of the time.

So where to start?  I understand that a knotted wire wheel on an angle grinder is what a lot of people use, is that right?  I've also seen people on YouTube use a grinding wheel but others not recommend it unless really notched.  Also, should I use a sanding disc?  Does the anvil surface need to be shining and flat?  If I do grind, should I be weary about changing the shape of the horn or anvil too much?

I've seen people doing some kind of ball-bearing bounce test as well.  Is that just to see how springy the anvil is in terms of how much your hammer strikes are likely to bounce back?  Is it better to have a lot of bounce or not much?  Or does that depend on the kind of anvil?

And for conditioning the anvil after it's clean I've seen people use (transmission) fluid.  Is that OK?  How often to rub it down if so?

OK, one more set of questions... What do people generally mount the anvil on?  Would a tree stump at the right height (top of anvil level with knuckles, isn't it?) be OK?  (I'm assuming any kind of tree so long as it's big enough to fit the anvil?)  Or should I go some other root?

Like I said; I'm so green at all of this stuff, but really would appreciate any advice from people who have been there and done that, kind of thing (and hopefully on a small budget, too!)

Some images of the anvil are attached, if that helps any.

Thanks all!

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The anvil looks to bring great usable shape. NO Grinding! :) just wire wheel the rust off and coat it with oil or wax ( more a personal preference in my opinion.  The face will shine up with use. If it's living outside you could keep an oily rag to lay over it when not in use.

  Do a little searching in the anvil section to figure out what mounting method works for what you have or can make. There are many ideas here on that subject.  The ball bearing test is explained many times on here as well. It tests rebound, and the higher percent rebound the better.  

If there is a name to be found on it, look on the side with the horn to your right. To me names are fun but function is more important. 

A good bit of searching and reading on here will head you off in the right direction. 

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Knotted wire wheel and then pounding red hot steel on it is all that anvil needs. Flat is not that important. Only grind the surface of that anvil as much as you are willing to grind on your face---and do your face FIRST!  Pounding hot steel will polish it out nicely.

The ball bearing test divides good anvils from ASOs (Anvil Shaped Objects) generally made from only cast iron.  Good anvils have more bounce, an anvil with over 90% rebound is excellent no matter who made it! One under 60% is probably best to pass on.

As for a support---it depends on what you have available---a stump, a bunch of dimensional lumber---oriented VERTICALLY!, Steel stand, box full of sand, hewn stone pillar, etc.

As for "conditioning" since you must live in the high desert just like me you don't need to do anything!  If it's kept in a dry location nothing may be needed.  In a wet location where condensation is an issue, wire brushing the sides and then doing a wipe on of boiled linseed oil on the sides will help. The face can use a wipe of mineral oil from time to time as needed.

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Welcome aboard Andrew, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the Iforge gang live within visiting distance. 

Your anvil doesn't need ANY repair or restoration, NONE. Wire brush the rusty dusties off it and give it a coat of oil or paste wax if you wish. It's not necessary but not having rusty tools is a good thing. Hot steel and hammer time will bring a shine to her face. Grinding takes time of her useful life and is appropriate in extreme cases and that fine old lady is ready to go to work right now.

The rebound test is used to see how much energy your anvil will return to the work from below when you smack it. The deeper the steel under the hammer the more energy is returned, and harder improves the effectiveness as well. The face on your anvil is dusty and maybe pitted some this WILL distort the rebound tests as laid out here. Hold off till you've brushed it off and done some forging. If it's still rough use the small hammer method or rebound testing it takes more experience to interpret correctly but will still give you a good idea of it's condition. I wouldn't sweat it unless it's dead, hardly and rebound (bounce) and dull thud rather than healthy clang or ear piercing ring.

There are a lot of posts regarding anvil stands including preferences, reasoning and pictures. Including mine. Knuckle height is pretty old school when a blacksmith rarely if ever worked alone and that height is better for strikers, those guys standing around with sledge hammers waiting for the smith to point out where to Strike." In general you want your anvil's face much closer to wrist high. There might be occasions you need it lower but it's MUCH easier to find something to stand on than it is to lower the anvil. Do NOT worry about that now, it's for more specialized techniques than learning the basics.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Welcome aboard! Glad to have you here.

Nothing to add to what was said above (which is all good advice), except one little detail: you'll see a lot said here on IFI about "London pattern" anvils. What you have there is the somewhat less common "Birmingham pattern", which is distinguished by the absence of a flat step between the horn and the face.

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Thanks for all your amazing responses - what a great community you have here!

So the things I've learned are that the anvil is fine and the more I use it pretty much the better the surface will become in terms of removing rust, a brush down with a knotted wire wheel is all it really needs, and if I grind it there's a special place in Hell reserved for me. ;-)  But, really, you've given me great advice in terms of what to do in the short term of cleaning up the anvil, good idea of what to mount it on and how high it should be, and I will have a solid look through all of the posts here regarding the ball bearing test and mounts - probably should have done that before I asked all my original questions, sorry!

Much appreciate!

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No sweat Andrew those are good questions. Better you ask an already answered question or 5 than learn the answers after you maybe damaged your beautiful old lady anvil. This happens, guys will ask AFTER they grind the life out of something in fine condition because they thought it needed to be flat with sharp edges.

You done good Brother. Don't be a stranger.

Frosty The Lucky.

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That looks like a good anvil with a tool steel face. Don't get too hung up on the ball bearing test. It more of a test for when you're going to look at a prospective anvil for purchase. It's a good test to know but since you already own it, clean it and beat it. 

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13 hours ago, JHCC said:

Welcome aboard! Glad to have you here.

Nothing to add to what was said above (which is all good advice), except one little detail: you'll see a lot said here on IFI about "London pattern" anvils. What you have there is the somewhat less common "Birmingham pattern", which is distinguished by the absence of a flat step between the horn and the face.

I was about to chime in with this when I noticed you'd beat me to it.

Anvil looks in great condition. Is there any chance of a gander at the vice?

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5 hours ago, Thief_Of_Navarre said:

I was about to chime in with this when I noticed you'd beat me to it.

Anvil looks in great condition. Is there any chance of a gander at the vice?

I don't have pictures of the full vice, so you can't see the leg which is slightly bent.  But here's the main body of the vice.  Unfortunately, the vice won't open any more than shown in the images.  The thread is not lock - I unscrewed it fully and where it was inside the box it's just a lovely condition, so I greased that back up.  However, the pivot bolt is absolutely rusted fast so I can't loosen and clean up, and I'm guessing that's the problem because I can't actually pull apart the vice myself to open it up.  Maybe the spring is shot, too, I don't know.  Oh, and the sliding handle does anything but - it's locked in place with rust, too.

I imagine I'll be posting up on the vices board sooner or later to ask questions and advice, after first having a look through the threads already there. :)

As for the anvil being a "Birmingham pattern"; was it intended for a different purpose to the "London pattern"?  I'm asking just out of curiosity and to further my understanding rather than looking to replace my lovely anvil (I'm so happy to have any kind of anvil and the prospect of trying some forging, and I don't even have any kind of forge yet!)

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That vise is rusty! Good thing rust can be handled. I'd figure out a way to soak the pivot in some sort of penetrating oil for a few days. Then I'd put a pry bar between the jaws to see if I could start freeing them up. If all else fails, heat the nut with a torch then put the mash on it with a big wrench. I'd be surprised if the handle is completely rusted together since those two pieces usually have a fair amount of room between them. You might try taking the screw out so its easier to get to and hitting the end of the handle with a rubber mallet or a big wooden hammer. 

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5 minutes ago, Ranchmanben said:

That vise is rusty! Good thing rust can be handled. I'd figure out a way to soak the pivot in some sort of penetrating oil for a few days. Then I'd put a pry bar between the jaws to see if I could start freeing them up. If all else fails, heat the nut with a torch then put the mash on it with a big wrench. 

I have some penetrating oil and a knotted wire wheel on order today - hopefully get them tomorrow and will be able to give this another bash.  Hopefully I won't need to buy a torch at this point and the nut will loosen enough, but good to know that's an option if all else fails - thanks!

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You have most of a forge under that vise and in your yard if you were to make JABOD ( just a box of dirt) forge. :) 

what Ben said about the vise. Soak it and work it free. Then a good wire wheeling and you are good to go. The spring is probably fine. Worst case it may need a little tweak. 

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22 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

You have most of a forge under that vise and in your yard if you were to make JABOD ( just a box of dirt) forge. :) 

Hah, yeah, that's pretty much the route I'll be taking, too.  I have a coal BBQ that's got "more than adequate first forge" written all over it. :-D

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There are several ways of looking at old tools:

 1 that they are tools and so replacing the pivot bolt is not a big thing---I tend to have this view and have replaced several worn out pivot bolts after drilling out the 3 holes to the next larger side.  I do try to use square headed bolts (and square nuts) when possible. I keep my eyes open for them when I'm at the scrap yard---but for me having the vise work correctly is more important than having all stock parts.  

2 Is wanting to preserve all the parts it came with (which may not be original BTW as changing out bolts and mounts and even screws and screwboxes was not uncommon during the "day"!)

If you want to go with 2 time is very important: wire brush the areas of interest and soak with penetrating oil and WAIT.  Trying to unscrew the bolt once a week and resoaking it with penetrating oil will often work but may take months! A little more aggressive is ploping the pivot on top of the forge and heating it up to at most a weak glow (these were generally low carbon wrought iron on the old ones so no temper to mess up with heating.  Try with the wrench while still hot and if it doesn't unscrew let cool a bit and soak with penetrating oil and try again the next day when cold.  (Heating rust drives off bound water and "shrinks" it making it easier to free up a piece and letting penetrating oil get in further into the joint)

Meanwhile remove the screw and screwbox and wire brush it and oil it.  There will often be hardened oil or grease on the screw/box.  I have a container where I can immerse the entire screwbox and another to soak the screw in diesel or kerosene to soften up and dissolve the old stuff and then remove it by scrubbing with a wire brush---finding a stainless steel bottle brush that can be chucked in a drill and run into the screwbox is a great help!  When done wipe clean and rinse with a light oil and let drain for a week or so and then reassemble and oil with your using oil

Once the pivot bolt has been removed, remove the moving leg and clean the pivot area and the inside cheeks of the stationary leg.  Note that the cheek area can have deep pitting without causing problems with the action of the vise! As long as there is enough "flats" on the sides to keep the moving jaw from flopping around it's still good.  If not build up by a *good* welder and filing flat is suggested.

Only after the pivot is cleaned up and reassembled can you check out the spring effectively and decide if it's ok, needs rearcing, or needs replacement.  I have several vises that are borderline; but as I uses them generally for stock under 2" I have not bothered messing with the spring to get it to open the vise to 6 inches---I just go to a bigger vise for bigger jobs.

My most aggressive repair was when I had the jaws offset vertically a considerable bit.  To correct that I heat shrunk and riveted a plug in the original pivot bolt hole on the moving jaw piece and redrilled it to shift the jaws into alignment.  Did that years ago and it's seeing heavy use in a college fine arts metalworking classroom with no problems. 

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I believe the Birmingham pattern was intended for heavy shoeing and agricultural use thus no need for a step. There is also a Portsmouth pattern which has a squared off bick the other side to the conical horn much like a French anvil. I have no idea about the use for the Portsmouth pattern; shipping/rigging uses maybe?

 

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On 2017-5-16 at 5:05 PM, ThomasPowers said:

that they are tools and so replacing the pivot bolt is not a big thing---I tend to have this view and have replaced several worn out pivot bolts after drilling out the 3 holes to the next larger side.  I do try to use square headed bolts (and square nuts) when possible. I keep my eyes open for them when I'm at the scrap yard---but for me having the vise work correctly is more important than having all stock parts.

I'm actually with you on this one.  I am super happy to have them and will respect them, but at the end of they day they are tools and I need them to perform the function for which they are intended.  That said, I'll try the penetrating oil for a bit and will get my hands on a torch to heat it up.  If that doesn't work (which so far with just the oil it hasn't) then I've no problems about cutting off that bolt and getting a new one - I'd rather have a working vice than an original lump of scrap metal. ;)  It's larger than anything I have so will need to source one.  I'm assuming you can buy parts like these from various places online so I'll have a look around just to be on the prepared side.  Hopefully my knotted wire wheels will be delivered tomorrow and I can start cleaning up the vice and anvil! :D

Edited by Andrew Collington
accidentally submitted before I had finished writing the post.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your great advice and welcoming nature!  I've worked on my anvil, and she's looking lovely, and my vice is now in a working condition.  Now I just need to make/buy/borrow/steal a forge (OK, possibly not that last one) and I can get started. :-)

Here are a couple shots oh my anvil now.  I only found one possible identification mark on it - possible a "G" stamped very close to the base on the front-side.

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Looking good, now for some hot steel and hammering! Ah don't worry about the last one borrowing is the way honest folk take someone else's stuff and keeps it. :ph34r:

Don't wait till you find a "real" forge, build yourself a JABOD till something turns up. Seriously, a blow drier, short length of pipe and a pile or box of dirt. How hard you gotta look to come up with that? Well, okay maybe you don't remember where you put the shovel. :blink:

Frosty The Lucky.

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